To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #481: Msgs 5775-5793 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Jul 25 22:00:03 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #481: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 481  5775 19-Jul-1993 Anthony Neal     Opinions and Coordinate Systems... << G
 481  5776 19-Jul-1993 Goldman of Chao  Re: Ine Givar terrorists << Tony Zbaras
 481  5777 12-Jul-1993 Ralph Ferneyhou  Traveller New Era - Impressions << [Yes
 481  5778 19-Jul-1993 WADDELL@delphi.  Receipt Verification << Thanks for the 
 481  5779 20-Jul-1993 EARTHER@delphi.  Wanted: Darriens <<      WANTED:
 481  5780 20-Jul-1993 langsl@cbr.hhcs  Question on TNE errata <<              
 481  5781 20-Jul-1993 Steve Bonnevill  Re: Opinions and Coordinate Systems << 
 481  5782 20-Jul-1993 Mark E. Johnson  Traveller items for immediate auction <
 481  5783 21-Jul-1993 MSAMUELS@VAXC.S  Old Travellers lament <<  It seems to m
 481  5784 21-Jul-1993 Klaus Moeller    Re: Wanted: Darriens << >     WANTED:
 481  5785 21-Jul-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     << Well, I've managed to unearth a copy
 481  5786 21-Jul-1993 James Kundert    double values for lasers << > I've just
 481  5787 22-Jul-1993 Bertil Jonell    Re: 1889? << > From: nosnhoJ enaD <dane
 481  5788 22-Jul-1993 Anthony Neal     Animal Encounter Table Query << Hello A
 481  5789 22-Jul-1993 kirsch@rhea.inf  Announcement: Postscript table file << 
 481  5790 22-Jul-1993 Gregg Giles      Traveller Over The Years << Caution: La
 481  5791 22-Jul-1993 Patrick Angus F  Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5783-5785 V58#15 
 481  5792 22-Jul-1993 Robert S. Dean   Challenge #69 << I was tickled to notic
 481  5793 22-Jul-1993 c_hamilton%W036  Tech advances << I'm working on a frame

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5775
Date: 	Mon, 19 Jul 1993 01:16:34 -0230
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca>
Subject: Opinions and Coordinate Systems...

Greetings again:

	First I'd like to thank Stewart Eyres and Keith Thoms for their replies
on my core query.

	Second, I'd like to say YEEESH! I have to say, I've come across as a bit
of an idiot, haven't I! (Oh-oh... Wide open door on that... 8-> )

	My original question was not really as to whether the Zhodani Core
expeditions were on their way to the Imperial Core system - although upon 
reading my own post on that, I must admit that's what it sounded like....
Sorry!


	Way I understand it, the Imperial Core System is the Core (politically and
otherwise) of the Imperium. That's cool. The Zhodani make expeditions to the
Galactic Core. True, got that too. What I've been trying to figure out (and
bye the way, Stewart and Keith, your posts gave me my answer after all!) was
if the map on the inside cover of the Referee's Manual where it shows the 
whole Imperium sector by sector is supposed to be the Galaxy as we know it...

	With, I might add, the Core system superimposed upon the Core of the
Galaxy...

	From your posts, I have gathered that that map is supposed to be part of
one galactic arm. This is cool also and makes more sense (And was what I was
supposing, but was a little unsure of).

	So, I'd like to say thanks to all who responded - I got the picture now.


	Also, the Animal Encounter Table Generator is finished and I'm awaiting
some response from Loren Wiseman as to whether I can legally distribute it
as freeware, without offending the company.

	Ever Confused,
	Anthony Neal
	anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5776
Subject: Re: Ine Givar terrorists
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 13:11:57 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

Tony Zbaraschuk <TZBARASC@ucs.indiana.edu> said the following:
> Bundle: 480
> Archive-Message-Number: 5773
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 22:34:07 EST
> From: Tony Zbaraschuk <TZBARASC@ucs.indiana.edu>

> I'm planning a Traveller campaign (set in the pre-5th Frontier War Spinward
> Marches) and I'm planning to use the Ine Givar terrorists as one of the
> plot threads (they're trying to sabotage some planetary defenses and naval
> bases just before war breaks out).  But I don't know very much about the
> Ine Givar (other than what showed up in 5FW, where they were basically
> Zhodani-controlled guerilla armies).  I can't seem to find very much in
> other sources.

You could take info about modern day terrorists such as the PLO, IRA,
and Operation Rescue and go from there.  The magazine
_Soldier_of_Fortune_ is an interesting source for para-military stuff.


Rather than answering your questions, I'll pose some additional
questions for your fun and games with the players's minds.

> 1) Are the Ine Givar a single organization, or an umbrella organization
> linking groups on different worlds, or just the Imperial label for any
> anti-Imperial terrorism that pops up?

	Is the Ine Givar really responsable for every act of terrorism
	that is attributed to them?

	Are some 'hits' by Imperial intelligence blamed upon 'those
	evil terrorists'?

	Is there fractionalism inside of the Ine Givar?  

	Who controls the Ine Givar?  Who thinks that they do?  Who
	does the rest of the universe think runs the Ine Givar?

> 2) Given that guerilla groups can't be effective without backing of some
> sort, who supports them: the Zhodani or the Sword Worlds (I've seen some
> suggestions of the latter).  The answer to this will probably influence
> question 3.

	The Sword Worlds backed by SORAG backed by the Zhodani, 
	backed by the Mad Scientists, backed by the Boy Sprouts, 
	backed by the Bavarian Illumaniti (sp) aided by transferable
	power from the Men in Black?

	How about the Imperial government?  Just because the Ine Givar
	cause problems for the Imps doesn't mean that they arn't an
	arm of IBIS.  Life could be really difficult for the group
	that came into possession of PROOF of the Imperial backing of
	the Ine Givar.

	Perhaps one of the royal heirs?  (Lucan?  He is really scum
	after all.)

	Remember that most of what you read conserning the Third
	Imperium comes from the Imperial printing office.

> 3) What, exactly, do the Ine Givar want out of life?  The Imperium to just
> go away?  Union with the Zhodani?  Changes in Imperial policies?  Norris'
> head on a pike?  The published information I've seen is singularly vague
> about Ine Givar motivations (other than to say that they're 'anti-Imperial',
> whatever that means).

	That depends on who is really backing them.  Zhodani backers
	are trying to tie up resources that would otherwise be used
	against Zhodani space.

	Imperial backers are trying to raise anti-Zhodani feelings.

	Some Imperial backers are trying to destabilize the current
	Imperial government.  Others are using the Ine Givar to
	manipulate the stock market somewhere.

> 4) Roughly how active are they?  (I suppose this would vary from world
> to world, depending on Ine Givar strength locally, their targets, and so
> forth).  This is probably a campaign-dependent decision, but I'd like to
> know what levels of activity could be justified.

	This depends on how important the Ine Givar are to your
	overall game.  Think about what affect terrorism has on local
	officials. 

	Offworlders are viewed with distrust.  Weapon imports are
	carefully watched.  Metal detectors everywhere.  Security is
	beefed up.

	Look at it this way:  The players have been hired to steal
	some computer data from 'Really Lax Computers'.  This should
	have been a simple in/out job in the middle of the night;
	however, the increased terrorism has caused RLC to increase
	the night security force and improve the building defenses.
	In addition there are more police patroling the streets.  All
	of this because 35 people were killed last week when a bomb
	exploded in a crowded shopping mall.

- -- 
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

When I'm shopping for a computer I don't look for the "Intel Inside"
logo, I look for the "non-Euclidean Inside" logo.

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5777
From: phd99@keele.ac.uk (Ralph Ferneyhough)
Subject: Traveller New Era - Impressions
Date: 12 Jul 1993 14:05:00 GMT

[Yes I'm listening, and I just forwarded this message to TML -- James]

There have been a couple of postings asking for info on Traveller- The
New Era, so here is my two work units worth....

I would throw this into the Traveller mailing list, but my subscription
to that still hasn't been processed yet (are you reading this???)

I have just purchased the game (Softback book, 300+ pages, GDW code
number 0300) and what I guess is the first supplement, Survival Margin
(Softback book, 100+ pages, GDW code 0301). First the game:

My first impressions were Oh My God, what have they done? I was rather
taken aback by the *Major* change to the campaign world...

The rules have not been changed greatly from MegaTraveller (still a task
based system), but enough changes have been made to basically need some
work to get the two compatible (should you want to).  The old 'flavour'
of Traveller is there, just in a different form.  I haven't had time to
playtest the rules yet, so I can't comment in detail, but of what I have
looked at, they seem ok.  The character generation is distinctly
different - gone are the highly complex (and IMHO fun) High Guard and
Mercenary advanced character generation, but we do have a system by
which players can pick and choose small portions of different careers to
get a rounded character - this does however leave the system open to
munchkinism, as a character could switch between lots of high skill
careers and collect lots of initial skill packets.

Starship rules are conspicuous in their almost absence - the rules
presented give a tantalising glimpse at some interesting changes (the
organization of lasers into power ratings, and the introduction of large
turrets - barbettes), but all the stuff on screens, construction, energy
guns, and in fact just about everything is missing. This is just so that
they can sell us another box set of course....

Psionics have been improved, and are now a legitimate career in places.
The system for Psionics has been made more flexible with the
introduction of success levels.

Other material is what could be expected - the aliens are covered in
about 5 pages (!), which means we will be purchasing separate alien race
sourcebooks (lets hope they get it right this time). The campaign
material is sound, with adequate equipment lists, a few sample subsector
maps and two sample adventures (which I wish they would leave out of
rule books, as once used, they become just so much dead weight in the
middle of the text).

Presentation is OK - there is a lot to read, so you get the feeling of
value - most diagrams are fine - I especially like the slightly neater
look of the subsector maps. However there are some flaws - for instance
the list of skill clusters (which is needed at generation) is at least
60 pages away from the rest of the character generation rules.

And onto the background - this is the most radical change to the
Traveller universe. The Shattered Imperium of MegaTraveller went through
a 14 year long war of despair, which basically ruined the infrastructure
of the Imperium. Then, in 1130, an ultimate weapon was released called
Virus - an intelligent machine virus which soon spread throughout the
Imperium. This caused all machinery controlled by computers to rebel
against humanity and effectively kill off a large portion of the
populace and throw the rest of them into the pre-industrial era.

The background to all this is well presented, and results in some
distinct campaign areas:

The Regency - This is the old Deneb/Spinward Marches area (Norris's area
in MegaTraveller). It is basically an area of the Imperium which has
survived through rigorous quarantine from Virus. The Regenecy has also
formed closer ties with Zhodani, Vargr and Aslan nearby. This area could
thus be used for a traditional Traveller campaign.

The Old Expanses - This is where the Hivers have started to educate
Humanity in an attempt to restart their technology. This allows a
flexible approach to what tech can be used

Pocket Empires - Small groups of worlds which have survived the Virus -
these can be a few worlds which can be placed anywhere.

The Wilds - The vast majority of the Imperium, which has been knocked
back to pre-stellar tech, and has virtually lost spaceflight. The rules
seem to indicate that this will be the main concentration for the
campaigns in the future, which is a great pity, as it is pointless
having a sci-fi roleplaying game set in the middle ages! This is very
disappointing by GDW - and I for one will not be bothering to buy any
Wilds campaign books.

The maps also show an area called the Black Curtain, which so far I
haven't found a reference to... This area is centred on Core, and I
guess we will all have to buy another book to find out about that...
Oho - just found a reference - this is Lucan's old empire, and
apparently, no ship ever going in has ever come out, and no ship ever
comes out of its own accord. Hands up those of you who reckon this will
turn out to be a small empire of high tech run by Lucan's descendants...

The second book, Survival Margin, is IMHO a waste of time and money. It
may provide a good sourcebook for anyone still using MegaTraveller who
wants more info on the war after the assisination of Strephon. It is
basically a timeline of that war until the Virus release. It also
includes a section on converting MegaTrav chars to TNE chars, including
such gems as "if the character has a large supply of Medical Slow drug,
then they could pass the seventy years from the war to the new era in
little more than one year subjective time" Yeah right...
The conversion is not a recommendation for buying this book - just start
with new characters.....

Overall, THE seems to have promise, but it also seems to have been
rushed out with no support. There is the promise of the ship combat
boxed set, and a Traveller Technical manual which allows the tech basis
of the universe to be altered. I would also guess that we will get the
ubiquitous ship compendiums, alien race books, and other crap that we
have all already bought for Traveller and MegaTrav.... *sigh*

I would recommend TNE to anyone who wants to progress in the Traveller
game - but have a stiff drink before reading the background to the
campaign. I think that with only a few small modifications, the campaign
is workable - I will probably set my campaign a few years into the new
era, when Virus has all but lost its contagiousness. The first steps
into rebuilding the Imperium can then be the focus of the game, perhaps
starting with the arrival of a Hiver ship at the Regency, having
discovered a few Pocket empires on the way, and the subsequent
re-expansion of the Regency into the wilds....

Ralph.
- --
      .
              [Believed to be the smallest .sig in the world]

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5778
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 23:40:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: WADDELL@delphi.com
Subject: Receipt Verification

Thanks for the information regarding the Traveller Service.  I am definitely 
interested as I have been playing the game since its original release.  Please
put me down for the daily posts as I check mail everyday.

Thank you,
Allen Waddell

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5779
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 00:27:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: EARTHER@delphi.com
Subject: Wanted: Darriens

     WANTED:
 
     Aliens Book 8 Darriens, by GDW.

     Will pay $50 + shipping.
 
     Call Matt at (619)523-0975.  Thanks!

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5780
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 15:19:34 +1000
From: langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: Question on TNE errata


                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date Sent:20-Jul-1993 03:17pm
                                        From:     Alistair Langsford
                                                  LANGSFORD ALISTAIR
                                        Dept:     Information Services
                                        Tel No:   289 7870

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( _traveller@engrg.uwo.ca )


Subject: Question on TNE errata

I've just been reading through the interim errata for TNE from GDW.
I notice the penetration for tl9 laser rifles has been changed from Nil to 
Nil/3-Nil.  Does anyone know what this actually means? 

Alistair
langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au


------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5781
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 01:59:28 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steve Bonneville)
Subject: Re: Opinions and Coordinate Systems


Anthony Neal <anthonyn@odie.cs.mun.ca> writes:

>Way I understand it, the Imperial Core System is the Core (politically and
>otherwise) of the Imperium. That's cool. The Zhodani make expeditions to the
>Galactic Core. True, got that too. What I've been trying to figure out (and
>bye the way, Stewart and Keith, your posts gave me my answer after all!) was
>if the map on the inside cover of the Referee's Manual where it shows the 
>whole Imperium sector by sector is supposed to be the Galaxy as we know it...
>
>      With, I might add, the Core system superimposed upon the Core of the
>Galaxy...
>
>      From your posts, I have gathered that that map is supposed to be part of
>one galactic arm. This is cool also and makes more sense (And was what I was
>supposing, but was a little unsure of).


It's a very *small* part, too!  I've got a scale diagram drawn up on my
computer showing the relation of "Charted Space" to the Galaxy as a whole.
"Charted Space" is the 500 by 500 parsec area containing civilization as
we know it.  (Like on that old original Traveller map with the pretty
starfield and showing all the governments but naming maybe five sectors. :) )

The chart is a little bit vague (for instance, I have no clue where to put
spiral arms) but is mainly meant to give some idea of the scale and distances
involved with the Traveller universe and some of the epic explorations
we've heard a couple of tidbits about.

Since I drew the thing up on my good ol' Mac, it's in PICT format right now,
but if I manage to convert the thing into GIF format, I'd be willing to
make it available if there's interest.  Personally, it's the sort of thing
I always wanted to see in the rule books -- we really don't have a good idea 
where the furthest frontiers of exploration are in Traveller.


- --Steve Bonneville
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERNET: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu
 "Back in the good old days of gaming, there were no rules --
  only a referee with a gun and a chair."    -- David L. Arneson
- --------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5782
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 08:06:27 -0700
From: mark.e.johnson@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark E. Johnson)
Subject: Traveller items for immediate auction

I've been running a game auction on Usenet for over a week now, and I
thought I'd give you folks a crack at the Traveller items. I have many more
items than I've listed here, and will be happy to email you the entire
list. Be advised that many of the items have outstanding bids, and I plan
to wind down this auction in a few days.

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace
Path: butch!news
From: Mark E. Johnson <mark.e.johnson@lmsc.lockheed.com>
Subject: An unusual game auction
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Message-ID: <1993Jul12.195843.12848@butch.lmsc.lockheed.com>
Sender: news@butch.lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed, USC, and UT-Austin
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 19:58:43 GMT
X-XXDate: Mon, 12 Jul 93 12:58:24 GMT

It's unusual in the sense that there is only a little bit of D&D
material. Hopefully there's something for everyone here somewhere.

My policy for this auction (my first) is a conglomeration of good ideas
from other well-run auctions on the net:
   
* Auction will run until Thursday, July 22nd
* A full list of magazines, boardgames/wargames, and rpg material is
posted to rec.games.frp.marketplace, while a smaller list of just
boardgames/wargames is posted to rec.games.board
* Bids should be sent to mark.e.johnson@lmsc.lockheed.com, not posted to
the net
* Rather than list minimum bids, I reserve the right to not sell anything
I feel isn't getting a fair price
* Bids should be in whole dollar amounts, and do not include shipping (paid
by buyer)
* After the sale is over, I will inform winners of their successful bids,
ask for shipping preferences, and then get an estimated shipping cost.
(No items will be shipped before payment is received, though I will ship
before the check clears).
* In the event of a tie at the end of bidding, I will have a last sudden
death bid session for games in question.
* Payment should be in U.S. funds and via check or money order.
* If you change your mind *PLEASE* let me know as soon as you do so that
I can withdraw your bid
* Rather than post a million updates, I just post one this Thursday
(7/15) and one the day before closing (7/21). I will *email* updates more
frequently to the bidders

- ----------------Traveller-related Items for Auction-----------------

Best of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society, Vol.3

Challenge
#27
#31

FASA
Traveller Deck Plans: Zhodani Interstellar Military Vessel: Vlezhdatl

GDW
Snapshot [deck plans and rulebook only, no counters]
Striker [Books 1,2,3 and Design Sequence Tables only, no box]
Traveller:2300
Colonial Atlas [for 2300AD]
The Traveller Book [includes Books 1-3]
Traveller Book 4: Mercenary [*well-used*]
Traveller Book 5: High Guard [*well-used*, all other Traveller items are
in great condition]
Traveller Book 6: Scouts
Traveller Supplement 3: The Spinward Marches
Traveller Supplement 8: Library Data (A-M)
Traveller Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim
Traveller Supplement 11: Library Data (N-Z)
Traveller Supplement 12: Forms & Charts
Traveller Adventure 5: Trillion Credit Squadron
Traveller Adventure 7: Broadsword
Traveller Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mithril/Across the 
Bright Face
The Spinward Marches Campaign [for Traveller]

Judges Guild
Corsairs of the Turku Waste [Traveller adventure]
Traveller Logbook [partially used]

___________________________________________________________________________
- -Mark Johnson                              mark.e.johnson@lmsc.lockheed.com


------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5783
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 00:07:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: MSAMUELS@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU
Subject: Old Travellers lament


	It seems to me that the spirit that was Traveller in the old days
	is dead.  No more Imperium, no more little black books, no more 
	decadent aristocracy ect.  I admired MegaTraveller for the polish
	they put on the rules, but the rebellion was a little much for me
	to swallow.  With the publishing of the last set of rules I feel that
	an era has come to a close.  True Traveller is a thing of the past.

	I for one do not view this as a good thing.  I will try to keep it 
	alive by runing old style using the MT rules improvements, but as
	old players are replced by new ones my pool of "old style" players
	will dry up.  I will probably never get to *play* in an old traveller
	setting again (that hurts).  Eventualy I will have to retire my books
	to a dusty shelf for lack of player interest.

	I see the current rules as a complete loss.  Both the rules packages 
	and adventures are incompatable with the old Imperium.

	The Imperial Sunburst has finaly sputtered and gone out.

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5784
From: Klaus Moeller <Klaus.Moeller@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>
Subject: Re: Wanted: Darriens
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 10:35:18 +0200 (MET DST)

>     WANTED:
>     Aliens Book 8 Darriens, by GDW.
>     Will pay $50 + shipping.
>     Call Matt at (619)523-0975.  Thanks!

Well, I don't have this book, but I've received a catalog from the weekend
warrior today with their traveller price list.
This is an excerpt from what I've got. For more information, contact them
directly.

Weekend Warrior
8116 VAN NOOR AVE.
NO. HOLLYWOOD, CA. 91605
Voice: (818)988-1441    Fax: (818)988-1998

Payment by Postal Money Order, Personal Money Order or Bank Draft. Allow for
an extra 10 days for payment made by Personal Check if unknown to us.

GDW Alien Module 1 - 8                : $20.00 each
DGP Alien Module 1 (Vilani & Vagr)    : $20.00
DGP Alien Module 2 (Solomani & Aslan) : 15.00

Prices do not include delivery or insurance.              

- -- 
 /       Klaus Moeller, Leiteweg 2, 26384 Wilhelmshaven, Germany           \
<    Klaus.Moeller@Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE   078326@DOLUNI1.BITNET      >
 \             security is an exercise in applied paranoia                 /

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5785
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:00:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov>
Subject: 


Well, I've managed to unearth a copy of Space:1889 at a gaming store in
San Jose, and I have to say I like the idea.  It's simple to use and seems
to have a lot of potential.  Any thoughts on why it never caught on?

Are there any other enthusiasts out there?  If so, have you read _Lord
Kelvin's Machine_ by James P. Blaylock?

Dane

traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."


------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5786
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 23:40:46 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: double values for lasers

> I've just been reading through the interim errata for TNE from GDW.
> I notice the penetration for tl9 laser rifles has been changed from Nil to 
> Nil/3-Nil.  Does anyone know what this actually means? 
>
> Alistair
> langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au

 Look at the second paragraph on page 273.  This is part of the "SA"
definition, and pertains specifically to the TL9 laser weapons.  This
will answer your question.  This section holds the answers to a great
many questions people have about the weapons tables.
 In this case, the TL9 Laser Rifle has two modes of fire, firing
several times per round with Damage 7 and nil Penetration, or firing
once per round with Damage 10 and 3-nil Penetration.


James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5787
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Re: 1889?
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 11:30:25 +0200 (MET DST)

> From: nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov>
 
> Well, I've managed to unearth a copy of Space:1889 at a gaming store in
> San Jose, and I have to say I like the idea.  It's simple to use and seems
> to have a lot of potential.  Any thoughts on why it never caught on?

  One theory that I have heard is that the rules and the background were
incompatible in that they attracted different segments of the gaming community.

  The victorian background attracted the serious role players but the 
simplistic rules were more targetted toward beginners.
  
  One counterargument might be that games with very simplistic rules like
Vampire is doing well among those who fancies themselves to be serious
roleplayers today, so it might come down to a marketing mishap, or maybe
the view of simplistic systems have changed between then and now so it
was before its time.
 
> Are there any other enthusiasts out there?

  The only 1889 fan I know about is Ed 'Elminster' Greenwood:)
(He claimed as much during Gothcon 12 at least)

> Dane

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5788
Date: 	Thu, 22 Jul 1993 01:56:22 -0230
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@MERCURY.CS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Animal Encounter Table Query

Hello All:

	Got a question here. In the Referee's Manual (MT) they talk about the
animal hits value and when the first number in the table is reached in battle
damage, the animal is down and when the second number is reached the animal
is DEAD. Cool, this is the usual battle system. But here, look at my Animal
Weight Effects Table...

ANIMAL WEIGHT EFFECTS
                                   Wound
Die    Wt     Hits      Wound     Modifier
- -------------------------------------------
1      1      1         0         -1D-3
2      3      1         1         -1D-3
3      6      1D        1         -1
4      12     1D        2           --
5      25     1D        3           --
6      50     1D        1D+0        --
7      100    1D        1D+1        --
8      200    2D        1D+1      +1
9      400    2D        1D+1      +1D-3
10     800    2D        1D+3      +1D+0
11     1600   3D        1D+3      +2D+0
12     3200   3D        1D+4      +3D+0
13     (+6)
14     6000   3D        2D+0      x1D+0
15     12000  3D        2D+2      x1D+0
16     24000  4D        3D+0      x1D+1
17     30000  5D        3D+0      x2D+0
18     36000  5D        3D+3      x2D+0
19     40000  5D        3D+6      x2D+2
20     44000  6D        3D+6      x3D+0

	Now, the Hits value I understand, I guess, as being the inoperative damage
value. The Destroyed damage value is not on there. And this entry Wound is 
not mentioned in the rules commentary. Is Wound the Inoperative Damage,
and Hits the Destroyed? (Table Screwed up?) I Dunno.

	This perplexes me and makes my Animal Encounter Table Generator invalid,
so before it makes the list (Hopefully) I'd like to fix the flaw so's the thing
makes sense...

	Any suggestions that the Traveller Gurus use?

	Anthony

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5789
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 17:23:51 EDT
From: kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de
Subject: Announcement: Postscript table file

Hello fellow Travellers,

just a short note:

I have compiled some of the tables in the TNE Rulebook on one paged.
I will send the POSTSCRIPT (!) File per email to anyone who would
like to get it. It's about 50000 Byte.

The page contains the following tables:
Unarmed Melle, Armed Melee, Thrown Weapons, Direct Fire Combat,
Indircet Fire Combat  (page 383)
Task Difficulty Level (p. 108)
NPC Stats (p.59)
Movement Rates in Meters (p.265)
Personal Hit Location(p.269)
Vehicle Hit Location(p.297)
Vehicle Damage Resolution(p.298)
Vehicle Damage(p.299)
Aircraft Damage(p.299)

The used fonts is New Century Schoolbook 8pt.

Juergen

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Juergen Kirsch
Institut fuer Informatik, Universitaet Bonn
Germany
kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de

------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5790
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 08:57:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gregg Giles <ggiles@cie-2.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Traveller Over The Years


Caution: Lamenting, Whining, and Nostalgia in this message. Take it as
         constructive criticism only. This is not intended as an attack
         on anyone. Comments and replies via the mailing list are welcome.

   Seeing MSamuel's message brings up something I didn't like about The
New Era, as well as MegaTraveller. But before I get into that, just let me
preface it by saying I *loved* the original Traveller system before
MegaTraveller; I liked it so much that I ran my own 'zine (Security Leak)
and was very active in HIWG, as well as keeping in touch with other 'zine
editors. However...
   When MegaTraveller came out, I lost interest. All of a sudden we were
buried in rules, rules, rules. Too many rules, and complicated ones at
that. Most of the enjoyment of a game isn't rolling dice or looking
something up, it's in the progression and development of the game; simply,
people enjoy playing more than they enjoy dealing with loads of rules. The
environment of MegaTraveller (ie: the Rebellion) was something I could
live with since there was still civilization and an extremely diverse
number of cultures with which we had to pick and choose from.
   Then there's The New Era. Almost every civilization that made Traveller
cool has either been wiped out totally or is nearly gone. Huh? Why? What
fun is there in a game where there's only ruins, decay, and corruption?
Must we resort to anti-piracy and relic-seeking missions? What about
international intrigue (espionage)? What about mercenary missions along
the frontiers of a powerful nation? 
   My perception of TNE is that the rules were simplified, but the
universe was destroyed. The universe was *always* Traveller's greatest
asset, and now it's gone. With one bastion of civilization left, where
else can people go if they want the flavor of the old Imperium? (The
Spinward Marches. But that's about it.) I recall a comment from "Survival
Margin" (and I'm paraphrasing): 'Over the next few years as things begin
to recover', etc. Few years? We have to sit and wait for yet another
new set of books on the old Imperium? Ugh... 
   IMHO, the Virus should have been something that happened, but TNE
should *not* have been set in the middle of another Long Night. Adding a
taste of 'cyberpunk' to a game, and updating the rules for simplification,
doesn't necessitate destroying the universe. I will try and get a game
together of TNE just to get a feel for the new system. But given that I
haven't played a game of "real" Traveller in 5-6 years, and the fact that
TNE doesn't really inspire me that much, I'm wondering if anyone wants to
play TNE. (I know only one person that ever played MegaTraveller, and they
weren't overly impressed. I never bothered, and stopped printing my 'zine.)
   
   Loren, I know you're on the list. I've been out of the Traveller loop
for some time. The above are my impressions and feelings about the matter,
but if you know, I'd appreciate knowing what GDW's thinking behind TNE
was. Also, I'd like to know what the current plan's for Traveller's future
are. Are there new books in the works? Will old books be rereleased to fit
with the new environment? Thanks.

   And thanks to everybody else that made it this far. :)

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Giles                                         Will design games for money
Dynamix, Inc.                                     If you're paying, I'm looking
All opinions expressed are my own                 (Sega-CD, 3DO, MS-DOS CD-ROM)




------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5791
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 13:00:48 -0400
From: sco@po.cwru.edu (Patrick Angus Flynn, MKA  Sean C. O'Toole)
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5783-5785 V58#15

>        The Imperial Sunburst has finaly sputtered and gone out.


Just a question.  I have not purchased and read the rules for TNE, so I was
wondering what symbol is The Regency using?  Are they using Norris' peasus
or a version of the Imperial Sunburst?  Also about the lamenting about Old
Traveller, I see no reason why anyone should have to change if they do not
wish to.  It is still possible to play Traveller anyway you desire
including a blending of all of the elements.  One of the things that I like
about what I've heard about the new system is its cross compatibility with
other GDW games such as Twilight:2000.  I like the fact that if my players
get tired of playing Traveller, I can have something force them onto a
planet where a T:2000 scenario is taking place.  They can play that
scenario out, and then continue with the Traveller campaign.  I say go
ahead and play it however you want.  If you make your campaign interesting
enough you shouldn't have trouble finding players to play Classic
Traveller.  Now there is an interesting marketing Idea, "Traveller:
Classic."  GDW could market the whole game in its original style with more
modern designs and with all of the rules suplements wrapped up in one. 
Anyway enough rambling.

Flynn
- --
Sean C. O'Toole    | Theta Chi Fraternity | In Service to the Dragon Throne
Political Science  |   Beta Nu  Chapter   |       Patrick Angus Flynn
sco@po.CWRU.Edu    |   "Men Since 1856"   |    House "to be named later"
Go POSC - xx087    | CWRU - Go Spartans!! |    Barony of  the Cleftlands
       "All I ask is for a tall ship, and a star to steer her by."


------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5792
Date:     Thu, 22 Jul 93 15:29:10 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Challenge #69

I was tickled to notice that the Vigilante (aka Admiral Bertil) made the
cover of Challenge 69, along with a Kestrel class fighter, named for one
of my wife's fannish pseudonyms.  Now if only they would get around to
acknowledging that I should be credited in A:V, I'd be happy...

In case anyone is wondering where I have been, it's been a fairly busy
month with all the relatives and friends trouping through to see the
latest arrival.  In any case, I won't have much to say about the rules
until and unless the boxed set comes out.

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net


------------------------------

Bundle: 481
Archive-Message-Number: 5793
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 16:48:48 EDT
From: c_hamilton%W036_NW@mwmgate1.mitre.org
Subject: Tech advances

I'm working on a framework for technology developments in Traveller (and
SF games in general).  First, I'm trying to come up with the general
categories available for advancement with tech level.  So far my list
contains the following:

      Physics
      Biology
      Engineering
      Psychology

Each major category can have, of course, subcategories.  My goal for these
categories is to be exhaustive, and approximately equal in effect.  Right
now, 4 categories seems a bit sparse.

So can anyone suggest some more non-overlapping categories?  For example,
Medicine is now a subcategory (unlisted) under Biology.  If you feel this
is a slight for a such a broad area, let me know and include your justifi-
cation.  Let me know if I've neglected something.

Also, if anyone wants to take issue with my categories as they now exist,
please do.  (I'll post my justifications so far if this thread generates
any interest.)

- -----

Chuck Hamilton                                           clh@mitre.org

"Crew or frozen watch casualties are replaced free at any naval base."

                                     - Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 35


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #482: Msgs 5794-5810 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Jul 28 22:00:03 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #482: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 482  5794 22-Jul-1993 Goldman of Chao  Re: Space 1889.  The BEF on Mars! << Da
 482  5795 23-Jul-1993 pihlab@cbr.hhcs  RE: Tech Advances << c_hamilton%W036_NW
 482  5796 22-Jul-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     World Design Project... << I forget who
 482  5797 23-Jul-1993 Colin Roald      Re: 1889 << bertil skribe:
 482  5798 23-Jul-1993 kirsch@rhea.inf  Postscript table files << Hello fellow 
 482  5799 23-Jul-1993 gwh@lurnix.COM   Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5786-5794 V58#16 
 482  5800 23-Jul-1993 Derek Wildstar   Various Replies << Bertil Jonell <d9ber
 482  5801 24-Jul-1993 EARTHER@delphi.  WANTED: Aliens book 8, Darriens << Klau
 482  5802 25-Jul-1993 Martin Snow      Death to Space:1889 << >> The victorian
 482  5803 25-Jul-1993 Mark Watson      Various << Various comments:
 482  5804 25-Jul-1993 Steve Gibbons    MT Typos << OK, OK, I _Finally_ settled
 482  5805 26-Jul-1993 Adrian Hurt      Space 1889 << snow@lyrae.colorado.edu (
 482  5806 26-Jul-1993 c_hamilton%W036  Re: Tech advances << pihlab@cbr.hhcs.go
 482  5807 26-Jul-1993 Lawrence C Smit  Re: Death to Space:1889 << [Adjusted su
 482  5808 26-Jul-1993 Joe Heck         FTL2448 << FTL 2448 is an, uh, interest
 482  5809 26-Jul-1993 Robert S. Dean   Credits and Design Flaws << George Herb
 482  5810 26-Jul-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     Long Response to Various Stuff... << wi

------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5794
Subject: Re: Space 1889.  The BEF on Mars!
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 10:37:56 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

Dane Johnson <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov> said the following:
> Bundle: 481
> Archive-Message-Number: 5785
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:00:20 -0700 (PDT)
> From: nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov>
> Subject: 
> 
> 
> Well, I've managed to unearth a copy of Space:1889 at a gaming store in
> San Jose, and I have to say I like the idea.  It's simple to use and seems
> to have a lot of potential.  Any thoughts on why it never caught on?

Such a fun game.  It had the bad luck to come out as most of the
gaming wenies wanted DARK FUTURE, CYBERTRASH games.  You can see how
this boring trend has destroyed the Third Imperium.  For all the
details, see the book "Boot up, Jack in, Drop out, chummer", IISBN 
Number 8347-92847982-92874398243-98234, published by Regina House
1129.

> Are there any other enthusiasts out there?  If so, have you read _Lord
> Kelvin's Machine_ by James P. Blaylock?

Quite a good game.  Combat was sort of weird with missile weapons but
the invention system made up for it.  

Matt

- -- 
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

When I'm shopping for a computer I don't look for the "Intel Inside"
logo, I look for the "non-Euclidean Inside" logo.

------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5795
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 12:08:40 +1000
From: pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: RE: Tech Advances

c_hamilton%W036_NW@mwmgate1.mitre.org writes:
>Subject: Tech advances
>
>I'm working on a framework for technology developments in Traveller (and
>SF games in general).  First, I'm trying to come up with the general
>categories available for advancement with tech level.  So far my list
>contains the following:

I am interested in this sort of thing too.

I did some tinkering with tech categories for a game I was 
working on some time ago; I will have a look for it but I
think it's gone now.

>
>      Physics
>      Biology
>      Engineering
>      Psychology
>
>Each major category can have, of course, subcategories.  My goal for these
>categories is to be exhaustive, and approximately equal in effect.  Right
>now, 4 categories seems a bit sparse.

The problem about a rigid hierarchy is that it isn't the way these things
really happen.

As a VERY bad example of what I mean; I vaguely remember a situation where a 
group of mathematicians and physicists were trying to solve a problem and
quite by accident an engineer got involved and new the answer straight off
because it was easily solved by a technique that engineers had been using
for many many years.

Back on the point again, do you intend to show cross relationships between
items (eg "gene splicing"-BIOLOGY without "Microscopes"-PHYSICS-ENGINEERING).

I wonder how many research projects died because the technology level in
a related field wasn't high enough and now that it is high enough have
they gone back to the original project or is it dead forever?

>So can anyone suggest some more non-overlapping categories?  For example,
>Medicine is now a subcategory (unlisted) under Biology.  If you feel this
>is a slight for a such a broad area, let me know and include your justifi-
>cation.  Let me know if I've neglected something.

Have a look in your local Library for any documents on Govt 
expenditure on research.  When I looked many years ago
they had a reasonable breakdown under various categories
like "Life Sciences", "Energy", "Military", "Transport" etc.
It might give you some ideas.

Also, have a look at a complete SCIENCES list for a renowned University.

>Also, if anyone wants to take issue with my categories as they now exist,
>please do.  (I'll post my justifications so far if this thread generates
>any interest.)

I think I need more detail on your categories and what they represent
before I can make any meaningful criticisms.

An important aspect that I think is overlooked in many games is the amount
of detail really needed to achieve the objective of a game.  In an RPG you
can overwhelm players with detailed equipment lists down to the smallest 
item (eg a comb) which when you get down to the real playing probably
isn't ever used in play.

If you are going to go to all the trouble of defining tech to the n'th
degree then you need a use for it in the game.

Just a thought.


Bruce...               pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au


------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5796
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 20:49:12 -0700
From: dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov (nosnhoJ enaD)
Subject: World Design Project...


I forget who (and don't have immediate access to my saved-files), but
somebody had volunteered to coordinate the design of the "unclaimed"
planets -- I got a 'ping' from 'em saying that unclaimed planets would
be handed out in a couple of days...That was at *least* a couple weeks
ago.  Is that still going on?

Dane

traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."

------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5797
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 02:18:36 EDT
From: Colin Roald <colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu>
Subject: Re: 1889

bertil skribe:
> > From: nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov>
>  
> > Well, I've managed to unearth a copy of Space:1889 at a gaming store in
> > San Jose, and I have to say I like the idea.  It's simple to use and seems
> > to have a lot of potential.  Any thoughts on why it never caught on?
> 
>   One theory that I have heard is that the rules and the background were
>incompatible in that they attracted different segments of the gaming community.
>   The victorian background attracted the serious role players but the 
> simplistic rules were more targetted toward beginners.

I always thought the idea sounded incredibly cool.  I heard that the 
rules were kind of iffy, but that wouldn't have dissuaded me as I'd 
probably want to use the GURPS system regardless.  The problem was that 
I didn't really have time to actually use the thing in a game, and the
price was just too steep for curiosity reading.  (I'm wealthier these 
days, so I might pick it up some day if I ever see it again, but still,
I would have loved to see it as a GURPS sourcebook, where I could just
pay for the cool ideas without the rules I'm never going to use.)

btw, I don't think I've met a serious role-player who would be dissuaded 
by simple rules.  Broken rules, sure, but simple rules only turn off the
wargamers.


- --
colin roald  |  don't forget to stop and eat the roses.  (larson)


------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5798
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 17:05:11 EDT
From: kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de
Subject: Postscript table files

Hello fellow travellers,

just a short question: sunbane got a copy of the table
file I mentioned yesterday. Who is the person I should
notify to get the file included in the /pub area?

The file has the very imaginative name "Traveller.ps"
(I just had no other idea :( ) and should be found in
the /donations directory.

Juergen

P.S.: Some people asked me to send the file to them.
      Because I use a new mailtool - which I don't
      trust completly - I would like to get response
      if the email containing the ps-file has reached
      the destinations.

kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de

------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5799
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5786-5794 V58#16 
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 11:05:40 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM


[economy of replies in force ;-)]

Bertil wrote:
>  One theory that I have heard is that the rules and the background were
>incompatible in that they attracted different segments of the gaming community.
>[...]
>  One counterargument might be that games with very simplistic rules like
>Vampire is doing well among those who fancies themselves to be serious
>roleplayers today, so it might come down to a marketing mishap, or maybe
>the view of simplistic systems have changed between then and now so it
>was before its time.
 
One very serious gamer friend and I started a new very light,
simplistic rules game system for a near-future space RPG setting
after getting massively tired of a) rules lawers and b) games that
were ending up mostly rules checks rather than roleplaying.
Simple rules do not a bad game make 8-)

Rob Dean:
>I was tickled to notice that the Vigilante (aka Admiral Bertil) made the
>cover of Challenge 69, along with a Kestrel class fighter, named for one
>of my wife's fannish pseudonyms.  Now if only they would get around to
>acknowledging that I should be credited in A:V, I'd be happy...

Didn't one of the earlier Challenge's have that correction?
I thought I saw one...

I have only one problem with the Vigilante as drawn (the design stats
are fine 8-) ... the stupid fighter bay doors should have been
offset so that they were over the port forwards and starboard aft fighter
positions, which would allow much more flexible flight operations.
As is, if a fighter stored under a door gets broken, one of the
others can't be launched until the broke one is fixed or jettisoned...

- -george william herbert



------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5800
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 23:23:38 EDT
From: wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar)
Subject: Various Replies

Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se> writes:
> Dane Johnson writes:
> > Well, I've managed to unearth a copy of Space:1889 at a gaming store in
> > San Jose, and I have to say I like the idea.  It's simple to use and seems
> > to have a lot of potential.  Any thoughts on why it never caught on?
> One theory that I have heard is that the rules and the background were
> incompatible in that they attracted different segments of the gaming community
> The victorian background attracted the serious role players but the 
> simplistic rules were more targetted toward beginners.

Nah, I don't buy that argument.  How about this one: Space:1889 only
appeals to gamers who actually read (and enjoyed reading) the source
material: Jules Verne, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs.  The
rest just don't understand it.  And most of the current generation of
role-players, born around when Star Wars came out give or take a few
years, just haven't done the reading, either because they don't read
much, or because they aren't interested.

I have noticed an accellerating trend.  Everyone, even science-fiction
fans and role-players, seems to be doing less reading and more watching
of movies (on videotape, actually) and television.  And this is
reflected in our games.

> > Are there any other enthusiasts out there?
> The only 1889 fan I know about is Ed 'Elminster' Greenwood:)
> (He claimed as much during Gothcon 12 at least)

I like Space:1889.  A lot.  I know one other person who does.

I own a lot of role-playing games.  Some of them I've never played.
Some that I never will play.  Space:1889 is my favorite role-playing
game that I've never played and never will play.  It is the only game in
this category that I continue to spend money on.

*However*, I typically don't buy "new" stuff for Space:1889.  I buy
"used" stuff from Crazy Igor, or stuff I find in the bins down at
Wargamers' Depot.  There are two reasons.

Originally, I did this because I had just gotten burned (again) with the
MegaTraveller rules, and I didn't trust GDW to produce something worth
spending serious money on.

Currently, because I don't expect to ever be able to
play the game, I can't justify spending lots of money on it.

c_hamilton%W036_NW@mwmgate1.mitre.org (Chuck Hamilton) writes:
> I'm working on a framework for technology developments in Traveller (and
> SF games in general).  First, I'm trying to come up with the general
> categories available for advancement with tech level.

The company I work for manages databases for the National Science Foundation
and the National Institutes of Health.  Anyway, we have a classification for
academic disciplines that is used by the NSF.  I've listed it below (it
has broad categories and "details"; it's not perfect, but all of the
different parts of NSF can at least agree on it.  All of the disciplines
also have an "other" detail.  One other thing: it's weak in the medical
area, because NSF doesn't do much medical research (that's NIH's
mission).

Sciences and Engineering:
Engineering
	Aerospace, Electrical, Chemical, Civil,
	Mechanical, Materials, Industrial
Physical Sciences
	Astronomy, Chemistry, Physics
Envronmental Sciences
	Atmospheric, Earth/Geological, Oceanography
Mathematics
Computer Science
Life Sciences
	Biological, Medical/Health, Agricultural
Psychology
Social Sciences
	Economics, Political, Sociology, Anthropology,
	Linguistics, History of Science, Area/Ethnic Studies
Technologies
	Science, Engineering, Health 
Other Science or Interdisciplinary Sciences

Non-Sciences:
Humanities
	History, English/Literature, Foreign Languages
Religion and Theology
Arts and Music
Architecture and Environmental Design
Education
	Science, Math, Social Science, Other Science, Non-Science
Business
Librarianship and Communication
Law
Social Service
Vocational Studies
Other Non-Sciences

Anyway, I hope that helps!


wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                            in the New Era


------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5801
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1993 19:34:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: EARTHER@delphi.com
Subject: WANTED: Aliens book 8, Darriens


Klaus,

    My friend, Matt, called Weekend Warrior and was told that they
didn't have any Darriens.  That is why I posted the Want Ad here.
Here it is again for those who have Darriens and don't have a need
for it:

     WANTED: Aliens Book 8, Darriens
     Will pay $50 + Shipping
     Call Matt at (619)523-0975

                           Thanks!

------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5802
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 19:35:53 -0600
From: snow@lyrae.colorado.edu (Martin Snow)
Subject: Death to Space:1889

>> The victorian background attracted the serious role players but the 
>> simplistic rules were more targetted toward beginners.
>
>Nah, I don't buy that argument.  How about this one: Space:1889 only
>appeals to gamers who actually read (and enjoyed reading) the source
>material: Jules Verne, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs.  The
>rest just don't understand it.  And most of the current generation of
>role-players, born around when Star Wars came out give or take a few
>years, just haven't done the reading, either because they don't read
>much, or because they aren't interested.
>
I think the reason that Space:1889 wasn't popular is because it's a
fantasy game in a science-fiction setting.  There's just too much 
suspension of physical reality (not to mention economic and social reality)
to appeal to SF players.  And it's probably too close to reality for
the average fantasy player to enjoy.

I've read Verne and Burroughs, but that doesn't mean I think their 
universes would be interesting to wander about in.  I prefer playing
in a world where things have evolved, not regressed.  For example, are
there any female characters allowed in Space:1889?  If there are, there
shouldn't be (for internal consistency) and if there aren't, probably half
the likely players have just put that game back on the shelf and picked up
the next Cyberpunk game.

I take it as a sign of the maturity of the gaming public that games like
Space:1889 die out rather than a sign of their illiteracy.

Martin Snow
snow@lyrae.colorado.edu


------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5803
Date: 25 Jul 93 19:41:10 EDT
From: Mark Watson <100022.3361@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Various

Various comments:

Space 1889:
(Basically, Wildstar says that noone is reading any more, they're 
watching TV and movies)
Well, in the UK general TV viewing is down, although movies are up. An 
article in one of the papers today has fantasy (note not SF) holding 
the largest niche of the book buying market. I would say that the 
reasons Space:1889 failed were:
- - slightly before its time - didn't catch the rush of interest when 
"The Difference Engine" came out. Incidentally I see Colin Greenland's 
new book (I forget the name) looks from the publicity very like the 
Space 1889 idea.
- - bungled support from GDW, although this was not entirely GDW's fault 
(eg they had problems with the parts for some of the boardgames, which 
delayed the line).
- - general quality of support material weak
- - lack of conspicuous success led to usual GDW loss of interest and 
general spiral into oblivion.

Women in TNE:
(Jo Jaquinta notes lack of women in the artwork)
Yeah I noticed this also. The only definite woman in the careers 
section was the "entertainer". Having said this, obviously noone told 
that particular artist they were illustrating an SF game, and in fact 
several of the illos are of members of the Village People. 
I hate the new character generation system anyhow, so this confirmed my 
view of it. Like I guess quite a few people I really liked the old 
system. I'll save that argument, but I have a couple of niggles that
I think GDW could look at addressing:
- - the background makes information about the hivers essential, but you 
still seem to need alien module 7 to play them. Also, has anyone ever 
seen a picture of an Ithklur?
- - that d*mn card based motivation scheme! Why not do it as a dice 
driven table? I suspect because it would make it obvious how useless it 
is. Does anyone use it?

Person looking for Darrians Module:
Try Zocchi Distributors, advertised in Challenge (I don't have the 
number to hand).

Mark
PS: I saw in a store this weekend a new game, FTL:2448. Anyone looked 
at it? Anything useful in it? How does it compare with Traveller?



------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5804
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 22:55:31 MST
From: Steve Gibbons <steve@nereid.sunquest.com>
Reply-To: steve@sunquest.com
Subject: MT Typos

OK, OK, I _Finally_ settled down with the MT Ref's manual and looked at the
ship-design rules in detail...  (Trying to convert the Ape.  :)

I only have one question (and I know it's been asked before...)  How the H***
did this manage to get published in such a state?!?

- --
steve@sunquest.com (SPG6)

------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5805
From: adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Space 1889
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 9:25:04 WET DST

snow@lyrae.colorado.edu (Martin Snow) writes:
> >
> >Nah, I don't buy that argument.  How about this one: Space:1889 only
> >appeals to gamers who actually read (and enjoyed reading) the source
> >material: Jules Verne, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs.

Well, I enjoyed the game a lot.  Partly because the GM was one of those few
who could make just about *any* game enjoyable; but I did like the game
itself as well.  I've read some of Jules Verne's books, and that's all.

> I think the reason that Space:1889 wasn't popular is because it's a
> fantasy game in a science-fiction setting.  There's just too much 
> suspension of physical reality (not to mention economic and social reality)
> to appeal to SF players.  And it's probably too close to reality for
> the average fantasy player to enjoy.

That balance was one of the things that attracted me.  It was specifically
not supposed to worry too much about real physics, which meant there was
no chance of getting bogged down with arguments about it.  Having arguments
as part of the role-playing, about why theories about electromagnetic
radiation were wrong and theories about the ether were right, on the other
hand, were fun.  (This ended up with my character saying to some crackpot
who actually believed that there was no such thing as the ether, "You try
to build an aerial flyer and I'll try to build an aerial flyer, and we'll
see whose one flies. :-)

>							For example, are
> there any female characters allowed in Space:1889?  If there are, there
> shouldn't be (for internal consistency) and if there aren't, probably half
> the likely players have just put that game back on the shelf and picked up
> the next Cyberpunk game.

And here we see the cause of the death of Space 1889; political correctness.
Incidentally, yes there were female characters.  The background meant that
they weren't just male characters with breasts, they had to be different,
which just made for some serious role-playing.  The trick with having a
female character was to stay out of the fighting and manipulate all the
males instead, and one of the characters in our game, a countess, was very
good at it.  She invented various forms of explosives but let other people
do the actual dirty work.

Re: someone else's comment about people watching movies rather than reading
books.

Didn't GDW have a game called "Dinosaurs and Cadillacs", or something similar?
If so, it is probably about to get re-launched in the wake of "Jurassic Park".
:-)

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cee
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5806
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 10:00:36 EDT
From: c_hamilton%W036_NW@mwmgate1.mitre.org
Subject: Re: Tech advances

pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au says:
>c_hamilton%W036_NW@mwmgate1.mitre.org writes:
>>Subject: Tech advances
>>
>>I'm working on a framework for technology developments in Traveller (and
>>SF games in general).  First, I'm trying to come up with the general
>>categories available for advancement with tech level.  So far my list
>>contains the following:

[deleted]

>The problem about a rigid hierarchy is that it isn't the way these things
>really happen.
>...
>I wonder how many research projects died because the technology level in
>a related field wasn't high enough and now that it is high enough have
>they gone back to the original project or is it dead forever?

(BTW, the situation which piqued my interest in technology development
was a trip to the National Air and Space Museum.  There was a display
of a steam-propelled flying top which had been developed by Classical
Greeks.  I also remembered the Incas using wheels for toys, but not for
any other purposes.  It just makes one wonder what we have today which
seems mundane but may be the basis for future technological advances.) 

>Back on the point again, do you intend to show cross relationships be-
>tween items (eg "gene splicing"-BIOLOGY without "Microscopes"-PHYSICS-
>ENGINEERING).

What I had originally envisioned was the categories would be exhaustive
for tech-as-we-know-it.  Then extrapolated technology (fusion power,
anti-grav, etc.) could be represented as consisting of the various
constituent categories.  For example, fusion power would require a
certain level of PHYSICS and a certain level of ENGINEERING.  Societies 
that had the requisite levels could have fusion, and societies with
greater levels could have fusion plants which were cheaper, smaller,
and more efficient.

Mainly, I'm trying to nail down categories so that "cheaper", "smaller"
and "more efficient" can be quantified and uniquely determined from
the various development levels which a society has obtained in its
tech development categories.

>An important aspect that I think is overlooked in many games is the amount
>of detail really needed to achieve the objective of a game.  In an RPG you
>can overwhelm players with detailed equipment lists down to the smallest
>item (eg a comb) which when you get down to the real playing probably
>isn't ever used in play.

Hmmm, yeah I suppose tech development really isn't relevent to Traveller,
which has a rich background of technology and devices.  But it sure is an
interesting thought exercise.

Well actually, wouldn't it be useful for Traveller to have some sort of
rule-of-thumb for how an increase in TL affects price, size, and
efficiency/effectiveness?  For example, how a Rhylanor-produced gauss
rifle (TL15) is "better" than one produced on Regina (TL12).

I remember Mercenary has a short quip on price discounts due to TL along
with price discounts for quantity purchases.  Does anybody out there
use a similar rule-of-thumb for improvements in size, etc.?

- - Chuck

Chuck Hamilton                                           clh@mitre.org

"Crew or frozen watch casualties are replaced free at any naval base."

                                     - Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 35


------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5807
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 09:33:45 EDT
From: Lawrence C Smith <smith@express.ctron.com>
Subject: Re: Death to Space:1889

[Adjusted subject line & resent to TML broadcast address -- JamesP ]

>I've read Verne and Burroughs, but that doesn't mean I think their 
>universes would be interesting to wander about in.  I prefer playing
>in a world where things have evolved, not regressed.  For example, are
>there any female characters allowed in Space:1889?  If there are, there
>shouldn't be (for internal consistency) and if there aren't, probably half
>the likely players have just put that game back on the shelf and picked up
>the next Cyberpunk game.

I have to disagree with this.  Verne may not have had female characters,
but others could and did.  They were "Victorian" ladies - they wore long
skirts on their adventures - but they were female nonetheless.  They must
have a "Victorian" reason for not staying home with the children - carrying
on their father's work, or searching for their long-lost husband, or some
such justifying claptrap, but they can still work as characters.  You need
to have a feel and fondness for the genre.  If you have read Wells, Verne,
Doyle, Burroughs, Kline, or the others from this period then Space:1889 has
a _lot_ of charm.  If not, and most gamers today have not, then it is totally
incomprehensible.  I think the earlier poster was right on the mark: this stuff
is no longer read.

>I take it as a sign of the maturity of the gaming public that games like
>Space:1889 die out rather than a sign of their illiteracy.

Space:1889 was not intended to be "mature" - far from it.  It was intended to
simulate Victorian-era heroic fiction, and it does a pretty good job of it.
It's too bad that there is only a tiny slice of the relatively-small gaming
market that have read and appreciate such fiction, and therefore might enjoy
the game - seldom enough for critical mass in any one place, _no_ one I know
has played it.

Larry Smith
smith@ctron.com

------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5808
Date:         Mon, 26 Jul 93 11:59:28 CDT
From: Joe Heck <CCJOE@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu>
Subject:      FTL2448

FTL 2448 is an, uh, interesting game. I play another game from the same
maker - Stalking the Night Fantastic - which I found was perfect for a break
from serious role-playing of any sort. Stalking lends itself VERY well to
the B movie genre... which is good, because the internal system of the game
is really screwed. It (as well as FTL 2448) has a try-to-hard to mimic
reality system, which simply ends up getting very confusing and has far too
many loose ends.

Something else about FTL 2448... it's an old game. It's been hanging around
those "used" stores for over 5 years now, and nothing new is being produced.
Rish Tucholka (I'm sure I misspelled it) got a new fervor and reprinted a
bunch of his games, but nothing's really new. His latest is one called
"Incursion", which is about as new as it gets - and it's not really new,
just a remix of the old system with a new concept.

Don't get me wrong - I like the system (even though it's rather quirky), but
mostly because of it's amusement value.

Take this all for what it's worth (i.e. you got it free),
 joe
 ccjoe@mizzou1.missouri.edu   (314) 882-5000

------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5809
Date:     Mon, 26 Jul 93 13:57:33 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Credits and Design Flaws

George Herbert (gwh@lurnix.COM) writes:

> Rob Dean:
> >Now if only they would get around to
> >acknowledging that I should be credited in A:V, I'd be happy...
> 
> Didn't one of the earlier Challenge's have that correction?
> I thought I saw one...

Hmmm...I don't think so.  There was a correction around 63 or 63 giving 
credit for "Ships of the Black War", but not for the Vigilante designs
as far as I recall.

> I have only one problem with the Vigilante as drawn (the design stats
> are fine 8-) ... the stupid fighter bay doors should have been
> offset so that they were over the port forwards and starboard aft fighter
> positions, which would allow much more flexible flight operations.
> As is, if a fighter stored under a door gets broken, one of the
> others can't be launched until the broke one is fixed or jettisoned...

That's what happens when you do a quick conversion on an existing hull. (-:
Actually, since I'm not responsible for the floor plans, you're probably
right.  I'll point out that it happens in the real world, too, though:
The U.S. Navy's aircraft carrying dirigibles Akron and Macon always operated
one plane less than their design capacity in the 1930's, because the additional
plane had to be carried on the recovery trapeze, and would have needed to be
jettisoned if its engine wouldn't start and another plane had to be launched.
Since the Navy didn't have the money to be dropping planes out of zeppelins
just for fun, they made sure that the situation never came up...

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Bundle: 482
Archive-Message-Number: 5810
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 10:54:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov>
Reply-To: nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov>
Subject: Long Response to Various Stuff...



wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar) types:
> 
> Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se> writes:
> >
> > One theory that I have heard is that the rules and the background were
> > incompatible in that they attracted different segments of the gaming community
> > The victorian background attracted the serious role players but the 
> > simplistic rules were more targetted toward beginners.
> 
> Nah, I don't buy that argument.  How about this one: Space:1889 only
> appeals to gamers who actually read (and enjoyed reading) the source
> material: Jules Verne, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs.  The
> rest just don't understand it.  And most of the current generation of
> role-players, born around when Star Wars came out give or take a few
> years, just haven't done the reading, either because they don't read
> much, or because they aren't interested.
> 
> I have noticed an accellerating trend.  Everyone, even science-fiction
> fans and role-players, seems to be doing less reading and more watching
> of movies (on videotape, actually) and television.  And this is
> reflected in our games.
>

Not only that, but what books they are reading are, to my mind,
somewhat questionable... Witness all the D&D/Dangerous Journeys/BattleTech/
Shadow Run/etc. books taking up shelf-space in the SF section...It's
getting a little too self-referential for my taste:  instead of good
fiction spawning games the games are spawning the fiction, which then
spawn gaming supplements (The Drow stuff with Mennazoberanen <sp?> spring
to mind...)

Really, this shouldn't be that surprising:  Fewer than one person in one
hundred buys or checks out *one book a year*.  And I, personally, am
making up for at least a few hundred people in that statistic :).

 
> 
> I like Space:1889.  A lot.  I know one other person who does.
>

Sounds like there are several more here on the list. :)  I'm more interested
and inspired by it than I have been by any game I've seen in quite awhile.
Unlike you, however, I'm pretty sure I know some people who might be
amenable to a game.


In response to Wildstar's comments above,  
snow@lyrae.colorado.edu (Martin Snow) types:

>I've read Verne and Burroughs, but that doesn't mean I think their 
>universes would be interesting to wander about in.  I prefer playing
>in a world where things have evolved, not regressed.  For example, are
>there any female characters allowed in Space:1889?  If there are, there
>shouldn't be (for internal consistency) and if there aren't, probably half
>the likely players have just put that game back on the shelf and picked up
>the next Cyberpunk game.

>I take it as a sign of the maturity of the gaming public that games like
>Space:1889 die out rather than a sign of their illiteracy.

I find this hard to follow, I'm afraid.  Why is there maturity in
rejecting a game set in the period of English Imperial-/Colonialism?  I
mean, if we're looking at the barbarity of the time period, shouldn't
modern gamers be even more horrified to be gaming in a Medieval setting
where religious intolerance and even greater repression of women occurred?
Space:1889 takes liberty with the time period to minimize many of the more
negative aspects of the time period and/or turns them into an opportunity
for role-playing, as almost any game does.  <Shrug>  Artistic license and
all that :)

The difference in playing in a setting where things have evolved vs.
regressed is interesting, but I'm curious what exactly you mean by it. 
What games *do* you enjoy that have 'evolved' settings?  Traveller? 
T:TNE?  In many ways, I'd say that T:TNE seems a shoe-in for regressed,
considering the amount of decay and inhumanity perpetrated by Hard Times
and the Fall of the Imperium.  The RCESs are hardly a shining example of
man's moral character :)

I agree that simply liking a genre doesn't mean you'll want to game in it.
What Wildstar was saying, I think, was that the set of gamers who enjoyed
Space:1889 was properly contained in the group of gamers who enjoyed
Verne/Burroughs/Wells/(And who, perhaps, also enjoyed Blaylock's _Lord
Kelvin's Machine_ or Moorcock's "Oswald Bastable"), not that the two groups
were necessarily identical...


ObTraveller:
Mark Watson <100022.3361@CompuServe.COM> comments:

>- - lack of conspicuous success led to usual GDW loss of interest and 
>general spiral into oblivion.
>

This seems to be a somewhat common theme for GDW, not just in terms of
Space:1889.  It almost seems to me that all this mucking about with
Traveller stems in large part from the people writing the game not being
excited about it.  When it fails to make money, they decide to pound
on it to make it more "modern".  <Shrug>  Does this make sense to anyone
else?

>- - the background makes information about the hivers essential, but you 
>still seem to need alien module 7 to play them. Also, has anyone ever 
>seen a picture of an Ithklur?

I noticed this, too:  Not only do you need info on the Hivers you haven't
got, but I don't (at the moment) recall T:TNE giving you even a physical
description of the Ithklur, which Module 7 does, thank goodness!


>PS: I saw in a store this weekend a new game, FTL:2448. Anyone looked 
>at it? Anything useful in it? How does it compare with Traveller?

Actually, this is an old game, which has been reincarnated :)  I've yet to
track down a copy, but I'm also interested in how it stacks up to
Traveller...Anybody?  

Dane

traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 93 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #483: Msgs 5811-5829 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Aug  1 22:00:04 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Aug 93 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #483: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 483  5811 26-Jul-1993 Robert S. Dean   Space:1889 << I think that Space:1889 i
 483  5812 26-Jul-1993 C. Harald Koch   the video generation (was Re: Various R
 483  5813 26-Jul-1993 Colin Roald      Re: Space:1889 << > wildstar@moeng2.mor
 483  5814 26-Jul-1993 Mike Basinger    Future Releases??? << Does anybody have
 483  5815 27-Jul-1993 pihlab@cbr.hhcs  RE: Tech Advances & others << >Didn't G
 483  5816 26-Jul-1993 James M. Kelleh  Various thoughts...[A << >Greg Giles Wr
 483  5817 26-Jul-1993 Steve Gibbons    Tucson's TV << On Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:3
 483  5818 27-Jul-1993 Goldman of Chao  Re: Traveller and Space: 1889 << > Bund
 483  5819 27-Jul-1993 Martin Snow      FTL 2448 << I've got a copy of FTL:2448
 483  5820 27-Jul-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     Re:  Checklist << Heya!  I've got a Lan
 483  5821 27-Jul-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     Kindly ignore my last message... << ...
 483  5822 27-Jul-1993 "Lord Krieg"     Another gun design << Here's a new gun 
 483  5823 28-Jul-1993 Leonard Erickso  Space:1889 <<  
 483  5824 28-Jul-1993 JPB1@delphi.com  Re: Tech Advances & others << [Forwarde
 483  5825 28-Jul-1993 colin roald      tech paths << JPB1@delphi.com:
 483  5826 29-Jul-1993 Arthur Green     Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5820-5824 V59#2 (
 483  5827 08-Jul-1993 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Chinese Chess << In your letter da
 483  5828 29-Jul-1993 Martyn J. Wheel  Vargr jump grids << The Starship Operat
 483  5829 29-Jul-1993 Biff             Re: alternate tech paths << [Manually r

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5811
Date:     Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:28:29 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Space:1889

I think that Space:1889 is a little bit out of our charter, but what the
heck.  Obligatory Traveller content: I saw Frank Chadwick at Historicon
this weekend, and there is no truth to the rumor that the Space:1889
design sequence material will be included in "Fire, Fusion and Steel",
the current title for the Technical Architecture project.

Colin Roald <colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu> writes:

> btw, I don't think I've met a serious role-player who would be dissuaded 
> by simple rules.  Broken rules, sure, but simple rules only turn off the
> wargamers.

Actually, Space:1889 is the only role-playing game to be covered favorably
in the very anti-fantasy pages of MWAN (The Midwest Wargamer's Association
Newsletter).  This was very much a wargamer's set of rules, with no fewer
than two sets of miniatures rules (both usable in a strict historical 
sense as well) being written to expnad the coverage of the background.

wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar) writes:

> appeals to gamers who actually read (and enjoyed reading) the source
> material: Jules Verne, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs.  The
> rest just don't understand it.  And most of the current generation of
> role-players, born around when Star Wars came out give or take a few
> years, just haven't done the reading, either because they don't read
> much, or because they aren't interested.

I think that I agree with you there.  I find it unlikely that anyone who
doesn't enjoy the above (and maybe H.G. Wells and H. Rider Haggard too)
is going to be very interested in Space:1889.  That automatically limits 
its appeal to a fairly small niche market, which is probably why it wasn't
a success in the marketing sense.

> I have noticed an accellerating trend.  Everyone, even science-fiction
> fans and role-players, seems to be doing less reading and more watching
> of movies (on videotape, actually) and television.  And this is
> reflected in our games.

How so?  Care to explain it a little more?
 
snow@lyrae.colorado.edu (Martin Snow)

> I've read Verne and Burroughs, but that doesn't mean I think their 
> universes would be interesting to wander about in.  I prefer playing
> in a world where things have evolved, not regressed.  For example, are
> there any female characters allowed in Space:1889?  If there are, there
> shouldn't be (for internal consistency) and if there aren't, probably half
> the likely players have just put that game back on the shelf and picked up
> the next Cyberpunk game.

Like Wildstar says, you have to read and enjoy reading that 19th and early
20th century stuff for a game like Space:1889 to be interesting.  However,
I don't understand your comments about evolution.  It sounds to me like you
are suggesting that this is a gneral attitude, rather than one that you
hold personally, and given that the general player seems to be into Shadowrun
sorts of games representing more pleasant, evolved societies than the 
Victorian era.  Besides, the comments about female characters lead me
to believe that you have not read the rules very carefully.  There is a
substantial section on female characters, with historical examples to back
it up.  Some careers are restricted to males, but a female character can
even join those by successful use of disguise (!). The female only career
of "Adventuress" is one of the best careers in the game, in terms of
skills and fringe benefits.  I don't think that female players would be
offended by this treatment, unless they really want to apply (current)
20th century sensibilites everywhere regardless of appropriateness.  My wife
is certainly willing to play...

(Side note: Space:1889 is hardly the only historically-based game to 
treat male and female characters differently.  I draw your attention to
Lace and Steel, Flashing Blades, and a number of historical GURPS 
supplements to begin with...)

> I take it as a sign of the maturity of the gaming public that games like
> Space:1889 die out rather than a sign of their illiteracy.

Sounds like flame bait to me!  Care to elaborate a bit?

Rob Dean
(A living fossil of gaming)


------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5812
From: chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch)
Subject: the video generation (was Re: Various Replies)
Date: 	Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:31:10 -0400

> I have noticed an accellerating trend.  Everyone, even science-fiction
> fans and role-players, seems to be doing less reading and more watching
> of movies (on videotape, actually) and television.  And this is
> reflected in our games.

I agree with this observation. Of the 8 people (plus GM) in our current 2300
campaign, the GM and I are the only serious SF readers in the group (we've
got a couple of Star Trek readers, but that doesn't count :-). The two of
us, on the other hand, plow through around 2 novels/week, and we have
similar tastes.

As a result, there's alot of interplay between myself and the GM that nobody
else understands. It's very frustrating.

Also, we'd love to be able to say "This universe has much in common with
C. J. Cherryh's Downbelow Station universe", but nobody understands...

[ I have a random .signature chooser. It has chosen a particulary
appropriate .signature quote today... :-]

- -- 
C. Harald Koch, Network Analyst | "Cable is not a luxury, since many areas have
Alias Research Inc. Toronto, ON | poor TV reception".  - Mayor, Tucson AZ, 1989
chk@alias.com                   |    [ apparently, good TV reception is a basic
chk@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca        |        necessity -- at least in Tucson  -kl ]

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5813
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 15:14:35 EDT
From: Colin Roald <colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu>
Subject: Re: Space:1889

> wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar) writes:
> 
> > appeals to gamers who actually read (and enjoyed reading) the source
> > material: Jules Verne, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs.  The
> > rest just don't understand it.  And most of the current generation of
> > role-players, born around when Star Wars came out give or take a few
> > years, just haven't done the reading, either because they don't read
> > much, or because they aren't interested.

Or because those books are hard to find, or because there's such a vast
amount of classic sf around to read that they haven't gotten around to 
it yet.  Give us a break, mon.


- --
colin | everyone you see, everyone you meet, everyone you talk to, are all
roald | asleep. there are only a handful of fully awake people in the world,
      | and they live in a state of constant amazement.  (joe vs the volcano)

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5814
From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Future Releases???
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 14:45:06 -0500 (EST)

Does anybody have a list of future Traveller and Traveller:TNE
releases.

Mike
- -- 
D. Michael Basinger: 	Not speaking for Indiana University
			dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
			dbasinge@arapahoe.ucs.indiana.edu (NeXT Mail)

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5815
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 13:22:23 +1000
From: pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: RE: Tech Advances & others


>Didn't GDW have a game called "Dinosaurs and Cadillacs", or something similar?
>If so, it is probably about to get re-launched in the wake of "Jurassic Park".
>:-)

Yes and I wish they would hurry up and release the movie out here in OZ
before they run "The Making of Jurasic Park"; it really ruins the movie
when it finally arrives 8^{.

I've heard we won't be getting it until September !!!   Ahhhhhhhhh !!!

So nobody dare tell me about it before I see it !!

>What I had originally envisioned was the categories would be exhaustive
>for tech-as-we-know-it.  Then extrapolated technology (fusion power,
>anti-grav, etc.) could be represented as consisting of the various
>constituent categories.  For example, fusion power would require a
>certain level of PHYSICS and a certain level of ENGINEERING.  Societies
>that had the requisite levels could have fusion, and societies with
>greater levels could have fusion plants which were cheaper, smaller,
>and more efficient.

Hmmm.  How about organic computers.  What about a society totally geared
to a biological technology.  Trees grown to be living houses.  Cold fusion.

I read a book a long time ago (oh no I hear you say ... suffer!) where
technology took a different path.  There was a simple law of physics that
if seen would lead on to anti-grav and space flight but precluded all
electrical type technology as we know it today.  If you took the path to
electricity then the other path disappers as "not cost effective" etc.  
eventually you reach the "electricity" dead end and everyone's forgotten about
the other technology path. 

>Well actually, wouldn't it be useful for Traveller to have some sort of
>rule-of-thumb for how an increase in TL affects price, size, and
>efficiency/effectiveness?  For example, how a Rhylanor-produced gauss
>rifle (TL15) is "better" than one produced on Regina (TL12).

Yes. Yes. Yes.  What's missing in Traveller (and most) RPGs are the various
manufacturer ratings.  Why is a 9mm revolver bought from planet A better
than one bought from planet B.  Tech level?  Cost?  Reliability doesn't 
appear to be a factor in Traveller.  How many times has your gun jammed
in a fire fight?  When did a mate of yours suddenly discover that a generic
brand grav-belt has a lower MTBF.  Can you get amunition for that 10.5mm
revolver you bought back on planet K.


Bruce...        pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au


------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5816
Subject: Various thoughts...[A
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 21:48:16 PDT
From: James M. Kelleher <kelleher@holonet.net>

>Greg Giles Writes:

>The environment of MegaTraveller (ie: the Rebellion) was something I  
>could live with since there was still civilization and an extremely  
>diverse number of cultures with which we had to pick and choose from.     
>Then there's The New Era. Almost every civilization that made  
>Traveller cool has either been wiped out totally or is nearly gone.  
>Huh? Why? What fun is there in a game where there's only ruins,  
>decay, and corruption? Must we resort to anti-piracy and relic- 
>seeking missions? What about international intrigue (espionage)? What  
>about mercenary missions along the frontiers of a powerful nation?      
>My perception of TNE is that the rules were simplified, but the  
>universe was destroyed. The universe was *always* Traveller's  
>greatest asset, and now it's gone. With one bastion of civilization  
>left, where else can people go if they want the flavor of the old  
>Imperium? (The Spinward Marches. But that's about it.) I recall a  
>comment from "Survival Margin" (and I'm paraphrasing): 'Over the next  
>few years as things begin to recover', etc. Few years? We have to sit  
>and wait for yet another new set of books on the old Imperium? Ugh...      
>IMHO, the Virus should have been something that happened, but TNE  
>should *not* have been set in the middle of another Long Night.  
>Adding a taste of 'cyberpunk' to a game, and updating the rules for  
>simplification, doesn't necessitate destroying the universe. I will  
>try and get a game together of TNE just to get a feel for the new  
>system. But given that I haven't played a game of "real" Traveller in  
>5-6 years, and the fact that TNE doesn't really inspire me that much,  
>I'm wondering if anyone wants to play TNE. (I know only one person  
>that ever played MegaTraveller, and they weren't overly impressed. I  
>never bothered, and stopped printing my 'zine.) 

>Gregg Giles

Ok here goes I've got a few things to say here I've been playing 
Traveller since the first three books I have had to bend rules in  
every game I've played and I haven't worried to much but I find the 
T:TNE rules seem very well put together and well thought out.
MT had some serious flaws... I still have used the Rebellion as a 
background for my games ( we are only "up" to late 1118 :-))
We started at Capitol and ran from there!

Ok I'm not going to play in the new era to soon but I may run in 
the period leading up to the 1200's as the Zhodani and Regency are 
getting closer politically and the Sword worlds and Vargar states 
are not going like it one bit. How's that for the old intrigue  
(espionage)? I also think that the Arden group might be "Modified"
Neither the Regency or the Zho's like them. More game stuff.

I haven't even mentioned the idea of ruin searches or doing in T.E.D.s
so there is a lot of game potential here even if some of the old  
imperium has a dark cyber - punk air. the T:TNE rules seem to be 
good, and I am waiting for the equipment, and ship building rules, so 
we will have a good idea of what we can and can't do. I will probably
still keep the thrusters as the idea of mounting the biggest fusion
or plasma gun on the back of my characters' ship does not thrill me.
and we will be playing a more "classic" Traveller scenario than the
central parts of the Former Imperium. Although I can see some missions 
taking them out there...

>(Patrick Angus Flynn, MKA  Sean C. O'Toole)

> Just a question.  I have not purchased and read the rules for TNE, 
>so I was wondering what symbol is The Regency using?  Are they using 
>Norris' pegasus or a version of the Imperial Sunburst? 

The Regency is using Norris' Unicorn head superimposed on the Imperial
Sunburst.

>Also about the lamenting about Old Traveller, I see no reason why 
>anyone should have to change if they do not wish to.  It is still 
>possible to play Traveller anyway you desire including a blending of 
>all of the elements.

Amen Brother! ;-)

>One of the things that I like about what I've heard about the new 
>system is its cross compatibility with other GDW games such as 
>Twilight:2000.  I like the fact that if my players get tired of 
>playing Traveller, I can have something force them onto a planet 
>where a T:2000 scenario is taking place.  They can play that scenario 
>out, and then continue with the Traveller campaign.  I say go ahead 
>and play it however you want.  If you make your campaign interesting 
>enough you shouldn't have trouble finding players to play Classic 
>Traveller.  Now there is an interesting marketing Idea, "Traveller: 
>Classic."  GDW could market the whole game in its original style with 
>more modern designs and with all of the rules suplements wrapped up 
>in one.  Anyway enough rambling.

>Flynn - -- Sean C. O'Toole 

Well I think it makes sense we don't have to buy a game for ground 
combat GDW already has one... fits right in with the exception of 
some weapons...

Hummm this sounds like an interesting idea but I have noticed that 
most of the people who are complaining have already collected most 
of the old stuff. I have all of the Journals as well as Digest from
no.8 as well as most of the GDW stuff... so I don't know if it would
sell and GDW is in business to sell gaming stuff... besides I wouldn't 
want anything to get in the way of their other stuff for T:TNE.


On the Ine Givar... they were terrorists supported by elements of the
Zhodani as well as the Sword worlds. ( as near as I could tell )
I have done some thinking about who is supporting them in the 1120's
as I have a character who has a bad tweak she kills Ine Givar! so far
she hasn't been caught but it is only a matter of time.

In my game they are supported now (1120's) by the sword worlds and an
origination mentioned in the MT game in the Digest the Order of the 
Red Star. This gives them some really "BAD" psionic help could be  
trouble. ( Catie, Jim, Jeff, Evan you didn't see this...)
It's hard when your players read this but they are good at not knowing
what the characters shouldn't.
Good gamers.

anyway the upshot of all this is that the Ine Givar are just what you 
make of them...
and so for that matter so is the game ...

On the matter of a wake I would be able to host one at my house in the 
S.F. bay area. ( I'd think of it as more of a party for us travellers)
but even so I would be happy to do it but we would have to see more 
interest than I've so far seen.

I like traveller and I have been known to take great liberties with
rules and planetary information to fit my preconceptions. So I inform
my players that I have done that as well as I have a very laid back 
GMing style Dudes! :-) well I am a native of California Dudes and 
Dudeets ;-) ( I've just been informed by one of my players that they
REALLY do talk like that! )

> For all the details, see the book "Boot up, Jack in, Drop out, 
>chummer", IISBN  Number 8347-92847982-92874398243-98234, published by 
>Regina House 1129.

Where can I get a copy and keep my players away from it...
I really don't lament the virus and loss o fthe Imperium...
now any character can dream of becomming Emperor...
Think of it... Draco Starkiller Emperor... Gag, retch, oh my what an 
Idea. ;-)

Post no flames here...

see Ya

=-= jim =-=

- -- 
Remember: no matter where you go...
There you are...
B. Banzi

James M. Kelleher
kelleher@holonet.net


------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5817
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 19:39:20 MST
From: Steve Gibbons <steve@nereid.sunquest.com>
Reply-To: steve@sunquest.com
Subject: Tucson's TV

On Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:31:10 -0400, chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch) wrote in
Bundle 483, Archive-Message-Number 5812:

>[ I have a random .signature chooser. It has chosen a particulary
>appropriate .signature quote today... :-]

>- -- 
>C. Harald Koch, Network Analyst | "Cable is not a luxury, since many areas have
>Alias Research Inc. Toronto, ON | poor TV reception".  - Mayor, Tucson AZ, 1989
>chk@alias.com                   |    [ apparently, good TV reception is a basic
>chk@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca        |        necessity -- at least in Tucson  -kl ]

Hey!  I'll vouch that Tucson's local TV is still stuck at TL 7.  Only 7 local
stations, and if you've only got rabbit-ears, most people only really get 4 or
5 (marginally.)  'Course I only flip it on for STTNG (keeping with the SFRPG
thread) and Designing Women (keeping with the PC vs. Victorian thread.)  :)

On the Victorians in Space (I can hear Jim Henson muttering in his grave...)
thread, anyone remember Dray Prescot series by Alan Burt Akers?  "Transit to
Scorpio", "The Suns of Scorpio", "Warriors of Scorpio", etc.?  Great fun.  :)

- --
steve@sunquest.com (SPG6)

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5818
Subject: Re: Traveller and Space: 1889
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 11:08:18 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

> Bundle: 483
> Archive-Message-Number: 5811
> Date:     Mon, 26 Jul 93 14:28:29 EDT
> From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
> Subject:  Space:1889
> 
> I think that Space:1889 is a little bit out of our charter, but what the
> heck.  

I don't really agree with that.  In many ways Space:1889 is much
closer to Classic Traveller than T:TNE.  Just look at it:

	Traveller			Space:1889
	=========			==========
	Zhodani				Belgians
	Vagar				Flying Martians
	Grandfather			Ancient Weird Tech
	Jump Message Routes		Mirror communication network
	Emperor Strephon		Queen Elizabeth
	High Guard			Ironclads and Etherflyers
	Striker				??? The miniatures rules
	Space Opera Adventures		Space Opera Adventures
	Strange Alien Civs		Strange Alien Civs
	archeological wonders		archeological wonders
	dead civilizations		dead civilizations
	    to be looted		    to be looted
	       .			       .
	       .			       .
	       .			       .

As you can see there are lots and lots of stuff that the two games
have in common.

> From: Colin Roald <colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu>
> Subject: Re: Space:1889
> 
> > wildstar@moeng2.morgan.edu (Derek Wildstar) writes:
> > 
> > > appeals to gamers who actually read (and enjoyed reading) the source
> > > material: Jules Verne, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs.  The
> > > rest just don't understand it.  And most of the current generation of
> > > role-players, born around when Star Wars came out give or take a few
> > > years, just haven't done the reading, either because they don't read
> > > much, or because they aren't interested.
> 
> Or because those books are hard to find, or because there's such a vast
> amount of classic sf around to read that they haven't gotten around to 
> it yet.  Give us a break, mon.

Get real.  The books are really cheap.  Much cheaper than new
paperbacks.  Look in the classics section at larger bookstoors.  
Barns & Noble has lots of wonderful old stuff.  You can pick up
collections of all of the writings of various old authors.

Matt

- -- 
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

When I'm shopping for a computer I don't look for the "Intel Inside"
logo, I look for the "non-Euclidean Inside" logo.

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5819
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 16:59:10 -0600
From: snow@lyrae.colorado.edu (Martin Snow)
Subject: FTL 2448

I've got a copy of FTL:2448 and here's the nutshell review.  It's got lots
of tables for everything from poison to learning a new language, but
not much else.  The planet generation tables are quite detailed, and 
Traveller players might be interested in some of the stuff as source
material for their campaigns (e.g. the alien races) but there's not
really enough 'meat' to make an independent game.  Most of the tables 
cover the sorts of things a DM just improvises during play, so I found
very little useful stuff in it.

However, another game by the same guy--FRINGEWORTHY--is worth getting.
Portals to alternate universes have been found on present day Earth, and
explorers are needed.  The catch is that only 1 out of every million people
has some unknown quality that allows them to pass through to the other worlds.
Since this quality is distributed randomly throughout the population, your
character can be from any walk of life (banker/thief/spy/aborigine/etc.)

The hard part of Fringeworthy is designing internally consistent parallel
universes for the players to explore.  But it's a decent game otherwise.

Martin Snow
snow@lyrae.colorado.edu


------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5820
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 21:14:04 -0700
From: dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov (nosnhoJ enaD)
Subject: Re:  Checklist

Heya!  I've got a Lanixhon writeup and partial generation (It's lacking
WBH stuff, but I've got a "complete" Scouts listing)...I just need to
type it in :)

Dane


------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5821
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 21:29:20 -0700
From: dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov (nosnhoJ enaD)
Subject: Kindly ignore my last message...


 ...'Cause it was supposed to go to the pocket-empire list, not this one...
Since I'm here, though, I seem to remember a reference (in a MegaTrav
supplement) that indicated that the original Vargr (?) jump drives
didn't use Lanthanum, but some other, inferior, rare earth
element...Anybody else remember this and, if so, was it indeed the Vargr
and what was the element?  I scanned through Cogs & Dogs, but didn't
unearth anything :/

Dane

traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5822
Date: 27 Jul 93 23:30:00 PST
From: "Lord Krieg" <CVADSAAV@CSUPomona.Edu>
Subject: Another gun design

Here's a new gun design for TNE. The laser allows the first three shots 
(or aimed bursts, in the ARC-10s case) to receive the aimed shot bonus. 
Normally a laser sight is only good out to 40 meters, but in conjunction 
with the electronic sight this is extended to 400 meters.

The "light power armour" this weapon is intended to kill includes recon 
and police models, as well as Imperial Battle Dress. The ARC-10 is not 
much good against Neubayern's standard infantry power armour.

                    Assault Rifle, Caseless, Model 5610
					
Notes: The ARC-10 is produced by a variety of companies, most of them on 
Neubayern. The design is simply an evolutionary development of the Heckler 
and Koch G11, developed in the twentieth century. The ARC-10 fires a 
powerful discarding-sabot round intended to be lethal even through light 
power armour. Unlike the G11, the ARC-10 has no auto-fire capability. It 
has an integral laser sight and an electronic sight in the carrying handle. 
The ARC-10 is the most widely-used service rifle in the Cluster, with over 
50 million manufactured to date. In addition to the Neubayern Army, it is 
used by the Neubayern Federation Marine Corp, the NeuBerlin Metropolitan 
Police Force, and a variety of smaller police forces on Neubayern. The 
ARC-10 was widely exported before the current export restrictions were 
adopted in 5620.

Ammo: 5x15mm APDSDU
Wt: 4.9 kg
Mag: 50 box
Cost: Cr5,000

Weapon      ROF     Dam     Pen     Blk     Mag     SS      Brst        Rng
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARC-10      3       9       1-2-3   4       50      3       3         55(75)

                            Kenneth G. Hagler

**********************************************************************
*   Internet: cvadsaav@csupomona.edu    *   My insurance company     *
*   Phone: (909) 865-7751               *     is Beretta U.S.A.      *
*   PGP 2.3 key available on request    *                            *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
*   ...study of the military arts will make one who is naturally     *
*   clever more so and one who is born somewhat dull rather less     *
*   so.                                                              *
*            --Daidoji Yuzan Shigesuke, _Budo Shoshinshu_            *
**********************************************************************


------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5823
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 01:34:39 PDT
From: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Space:1889

 
There's a *reason* why stuff like Burroughs and Wells is getting harder
to find. It's in the Public domain, which means that the publishers
have to worry about "what if somebody *else* prints a copy that's
better/cheaper/whatever than ours?" Which generally means that they
don't bother.

On the other hand, this has it's advantages. There are *several* groups
making PD materail available in electronic form on both Fidonet and the
Internet. I've got the first 5 Burroughs "Mars" books on my HD. I'm
considering running them through a travesty generator to see if it'll
produce a usable plot for an adventure. :-)
- --  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!51!Leonard.Erickson
Internet: Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5824
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 01:22:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: JPB1@delphi.com
Subject: Re: Tech Advances & others

[Forwarded to TML broadcast, with subject line fix, by James Perkins]

>From: pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: RE: Tech Advances & others

Re:
 >I read a book a long time ago (oh no I hear you say ... suffer!) where
 >technology took a different path.  There was a simple law of physics that
 >if seen would lead on to anti-grav and space flight but precluded all
 >electrical type technology as we know it today.  If you took the path to  
 >electricity then the other path disappers as "not cost effective" etc.  
 >eventually you reach the "electricity" dead end and everyone's forgotten
 >about the other technology path. 

I think this one may have been by Poul Anderson.  As I recall, one of the
side effects of taking the antigrav path is that you never get the really
neato weapons, flight tech, etc. 

I think the story starts with a group of conquistador type ETs landing their 
spaceship on a current tech Earth, and opening up on the natives with their
super high tech weapons (muskets).  Things progress as might be expected
from this point. 

Joe
"Backwards compatibility means never getting to fix your mistakes." - me

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5825
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 22:12:06 EDT
From: colin roald <colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu>
Subject: tech paths

JPB1@delphi.com:
> I think this one may have been by Poul Anderson.  As I recall, one of the
> side effects of taking the antigrav path is that you never get the really
> neato weapons, flight tech, etc. 
> 
> I think the story starts with a group of conquistador type ETs landing their 
> spaceship on a current tech Earth, and opening up on the natives with their
> super high tech weapons (muskets).  Things progress as might be expected
> from this point. 

It was Harry Turtledove, king of cuteness. 


- --
colin roald | you take the guy with the tattoo, and i'll take the fish.

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5826
Date: 	Thu, 29 Jul 1993 05:33:12 -0400
From: Arthur Green <ARTHUR@cclana.ucd.ie>
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5820-5824 V59#2 (msg 5821)

>Bundle: 483
>Archive-Message-Number: 5821
>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 93 21:29:20 -0700
>From: dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov (nosnhoJ enaD)
>Subject: Kindly ignore my last message...
>
>
> ...'Cause it was supposed to go to the pocket-empire list, not this one...
>Since I'm here, though, I seem to remember a reference (in a MegaTrav
>supplement) that indicated that the original Vargr (?) jump drives
>didn't use Lanthanum, but some other, inferior, rare earth
>element...Anybody else remember this and, if so, was it indeed the Vargr
>and what was the element?  I scanned through Cogs & Dogs, but didn't
>unearth anything :/
>
>Dane
>
Wasn't it barium? I recall some ancient spacer joke about the best thing
to do with a Vargr jump-drive ("bury 'em"). Hmmm ... how does this pun
translate into Galanglic? Is Galanglic still part of TNE?
 -  Arthur Green
    University College Dublin Computing Services
    Email: arthur@cclana.ucd.ie     Tel: +353 1 706 2456
                                    Fax: +353 1 283 7077


------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5827
Date:     Thu, 8 Jul 93 13:47:54 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Chinese Chess

In your letter dated Thu, 24 Jun 1993 16:44:33 -0700, you wrote:
> > Hi!  I placed an order with you folks a couple of days ago, and Janice
> >(last name unknown) said that you were currently out of Chinese chess sets.
> >Is there some sort of waiting list that I could sign up for, to be 
> >notified when the next shipment arrives?
> 
> To be honest, probably the best way to get an UNPAID backorder for the
> item using a VISA or MasterCard #....
> For your convenience, you can order via e-mail with a VISA or MasterCard #.
> 
> Please feel free to write me if you have any questions.
> 
>                                 Anton Dovydaitis

OK.  Let's make this official.  I'd like to order one (1) CC210 Chinese
Chess set, and one (1) copy of S4, _Chinese Chess For Beginners_.  Since
the CC210s are currently out of stock, that'll have to wait, but I'll
take the book now, since I can fake the game reasonably well with my 
Korean chess set.

My address is: Rob Dean
               6205-D Edgewood Road
               Edgewood, MD 21040

and my Mastercard is 5329 0315 0121 9610 (11/93).

Any idea when the sets might be in?

Rob Dean



------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5828
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 09:59:14 -0400
From: Martyn J. Wheeler <sasmjw@unx.sas.com>
Subject: Vargr jump grids

The Starship Operators Manual indicates that the Vargr drives used a
Barium grid.  I wouldn't remember that if it wasn't for the bad joke.

I very nearly ran a Space:1889 campaign instead of my current
Traveller one.  The main reason I didn't is that we also had a Cthulhu
game in the group, and wanted more variety in time setting than
1889-1920.  I will probably run it, one day.

My Traveller campaign is currently on hold, having reached a suitable
season-ending episode.  This gives me a chance to catch up on all the
background tasks and look at the TNE rules (which I don't have yet,
but I do have the boxed edition on order through Wargames West).  I
know the ship design stuff isn't out yet, but does anyone have an
intuition as to how detailed it will be, and how well pre-rebellion
(long live Strephon!) Imperial ships will convert?  Also, how feasible
is it to use MT ship designs (and combat rules, if necessary) along
with the other TNE rules?  I have to decide whether to add
long-desired updates to my MT ship design programme or whether to
start from scratch on a TNE one.

Martyn
- --------------sasmjw@unx.sas.com----(Martyn Wheeler)----DoD #293--------------
SAS Institute, Inc: (919) 677-8000 ext.7954    H: (919) 839-0092 (Raleigh, NC)
    "We live in the short term and hope for the best" -- Finitribe

------------------------------

Bundle: 483
Archive-Message-Number: 5829
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 12:13:41 -0400
From: dn5@psu.edu (Biff)
Subject: Re: alternate tech paths

[Manually re-sent to TML digester with doctored subject line... watch
those auto-replies, by default they go to traveller-request alone! --
James, TML Admin]

>I think this one may have been by Poul Anderson.  As I recall, one of the
>side effects of taking the antigrav path is that you never get the really
>neato weapons, flight tech, etc.

Actually the story was by Harry Turtledove, and titled something like
"The Road Less Traveled" (I'm not really sure of the name).

It made a good story, but I couldn't really see it as a role-playing
universe, because the players (if human) would be too advanced over the
aliens (hm, sounds like New Traveler...).

()()()()()()()()()()()()() CBEL--Teaching & Learning Technologies ()()()
D. Jay Newman        !  We were all born to live with magic, the
dn5@psu.edu          !  entire human race.  We're never more than
dn5@psuvm.psu.edu    !  half-alive without it.  -- Fred Saberhagen


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #484: Msgs 5830-5844 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Aug  4 22:00:03 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Aug 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #484: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 484  5830 29-Jul-1993 Dana Carson      Re: Tech Advances & others <<    The st
 484  5831 30-Jul-1993 Stewart Eyres    Original Vargr J-drives << I don't know
 484  5832 29-Jul-1993 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Tech Advances & others << JPB1@del
 484  5833 30-Jul-1993 Robert S. Dean   The Danger of Resend << What a day.  As
 484  5834 30-Jul-1993 James T Perkins  Re: The Danger of Resend  << Robert S. 
 484  5835 30-Jul-1993 Anthony Neal     Star Names and Positions around Terra <
 484  5836 30-Jul-1993 Brian Jones      fusion drives << Newsgroups: rec.games.
 484  5837 31-Jul-1993 Pauli            Blunders << Rob Dean wrote:
 484  5838 30-Jul-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Vargr Jump Drives << Howdy,
 484  5839 30-Jul-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     Near Stars... <<  
 484  5840 31-Jul-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     Background Material   3/3 << (Continued
 484  5841 31-Jul-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     Background Material   2/3 << (Continued
 484  5842 31-Jul-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     Background Material   1/3 <<   I was in
 484  5843 01-Aug-1993 Steve Bonnevill  Galactic Map PICT Available << For thos
 484  5844 01-Aug-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     Antigrav but no volts <<   ::>>  >I rea

------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5830
From: tron!carson@uunet.UU.NET (Dana Carson)
Subject: Re: Tech Advances & others
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 14:21:27 -0400

   The story about low-tech FTL is _The Road Less Travelled_ by
   Turtledove.  There is also a sequal whost title I can't remember.  I
have thought about setting a campaign in that universe, it would have
some interesting happenings.  If you used the low tech setting.  The
part that comes just after the story with Earth taking over a large part
of the galaxy would be boring.  Automatic weapons and nukes against
muskets and blackpowder bombs dropped from spaceship hatches is not an
interesting contest.

- --
Dana Carson
Westinghouse Electronic Systems Group  Mail Stop 1615
net: carson@tron.bwi.wec.com     | 
     ...!uunet!tron!carson       | This message on recycled bits.
AT&T: (410) 765-3513             |
WIN:  285-3513                   |


------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5831
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 08:57:03 +0100 (BST)
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@jb.man.ac.uk>
Subject: Original Vargr J-drives

I don't know who asked, but I think the reference to a different element
used instead of Lanthanum by Vargr may have come from Starship Operator's
Manual.  Apparently, the Rare Earth was a very-rare Lair, so that Barium
was used initially instead of Lanthanum, until someone discovered a more
abundant source, and realised it could be used.  Perhaps there was some
early powerplay (more like multiple powerplays, knowing the Vargr)
regarding this knowledge.  I may be wrong about the source for this, all I
can remember clearly is that this fact lead to the "common" saying,

"What do you do with Vargr jump-drives; bury-em"  Ha ha (not) :-)

_____________________________________________________________________________
"Traveller Done Wrong 
	- Let's get the Fiction back into Science Fiction Roleplaying"

Stewart								N.R.A.L.
								Jodrell Bank
								Macclesfield
spe@jb.man.ac.uk						Cheshire
								SK11 9DL
____________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5832
Date:     Thu, 29 Jul 93 8:33:01 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Tech Advances & others

JPB1@delphi.com writes:
> >From: pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
> 
>  >I read a book a long time ago (oh no I hear you say ... suffer!) where
>  >technology took a different path.  There was a simple law of physics that
>  >if seen would lead on to anti-grav and space flight but precluded all
>  >electrical type technology as we know it today.
> 
> I think this one may have been by Poul Anderson.  As I recall, one of the
> side effects of taking the antigrav path is that you never get the really
> neato weapons, flight tech, etc. 
> 
> I think the story starts with a group of conquistador type ETs landing their 
> spaceship on a current tech Earth, and opening up on the natives with their
> super high tech weapons (muskets).  Things progress as might be expected
> from this point. 

The stories you are discussing are "Herbig-Haro" and "The Road Not Taken",
both by Harry Turtledove.  I think both of them are in his short story
collections someplace, but he's a prolific short story writer, and his
stuff is everywhere.  "Herbig-HAro" was one of the first stories he published
in Analog, and takes place sometime after the humans built an empire using the
easy drive technology left to them by the aliens and their own surperior
weapons.  This empire, like all human foundations, eventually collapsed, and
the story is about the first contact with another race which also has gone
the road to electricity and so forth.

"THe Road Not Taken" expands on a small sequence from "Herbig-Haro", in which
the arrival of the 17th century style aliens on Earth is shown.

Rob Dean
(Occasional SF trivia consultant)



------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5833
Date:     Fri, 30 Jul 93 8:10:41 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  The Danger of Resend

What a day.  As you have all noticed by now, I managed to resend the wrong
message to the Traveller mailing list last night, which caused a panic call
to my bank this morning to cancel my credit card. They said that this was the
first time they'd heard of that particular blunder. (-:

Probably the virus in action...

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5834
Subject: Re: The Danger of Resend 
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 07:32:43 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>


Robert S. Dean <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil> writes:
> What a day. As you have all noticed by now, I managed to resend the
> wrong message to the Traveller mailing list last night, which caused a
> panic call to my bank this morning to cancel my credit card. They said
> that this was the first time they'd heard of that particular blunder.
> (-:

And this is spite of the fact that the most popular blunder is for
people to autoreply to a TML digest, which by default sends a message to
me alone (traveller-request) instead of the digest alias. I don't know
how you do it, Rob.

You've almost topped my blunder of mailing my checkbook to Sweden along
with a couple of MegaTraveller books that I arranged to send to a TMLer.
"Honest honey, it must've dropped in the box just before I sealed it at
the Post Office." I'll never live it down.

James

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5835
Date: 	Fri, 30 Jul 1993 15:57:32 -0230
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@mercury.cs.mun.ca>
Subject: Star Names and Positions around Terra

Hello sophonts:

	I have been putting together my own little game background (because I can't
get enough information about the Official game universe to like it...) and have
begun plotting positions from an astrophysics text using Right Ascension
coordinates and either Ly or pc distances. Having exhausted the chartings of
star systems that actually existed in the old Solomani Rim data and the
information in my text, I went to the local University Library. Lot of texts,
but only one Brightest Star Catalogue - with no distances. Now, I am no
astrophysicist, and I shudder at the idea of having to actually interpret
the Hertzprung-Russell Diagram and use the Visual Magnitudes listed, which are
in several different systems.

	So, does anyone out there have a listing of stars in the Terra Locale with
some form of direction and distance information? In electronic Format? If so,
could you mail it to me?  Thanks all.

	Anthony

------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5836
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 11:43:23 -0700
From: bjones@vsattui.llnl.gov (Brian Jones)
Subject: fusion drives

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Mistake on fusion drive
Summary: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: world
Organization: UC Davis Dept of Applied Science at LLNL
Keywords: Traveller

I posted an article yesterday about the efficeincy of fusion drives.
Well, when I do the math again in the daylight, I find that the energy
yield for a fusion powerplant burning 1 m^3 of Hydrogen is 3 orders of
magnitude higher than my post suggested. A fusion plant of this type,
operating at 50% efficiency would have an output of:

2.27E10 MJ/m^3, 

Thus a 1000 MW powerplant would take 2.27E7 seconds (262 days) to
consume 1 m^3 of fuel. This means it would be very easy to build a
powerplant with a 20 or 50 year duration.

unfortunatly, this also means the rocket velocity is going to .1 c.
Since this would result in an error in the classical figure of only
about 1%, I will use the classical figure anyway. It is

Vr=-2.53E7 m/s

This results in the fuel usage (in kg/s) going as:

dM/dt=Mi(1-exp(a*t/Vr))*(a/Vr)

Thus a fusion propelled 1000T vessel would require  .14% of ships mass
for fuel (20 m^3) for 1  hour at 1g. for 1 day, it would take 3.3% of
ships mass for fuel (474 m^3). For 1 month at 1 g, 64.1% (9054 m^3).
If a ship was going to do alot of in system travelling, it might be able
to supplement it's fuel with a Bussard ramjet aproach. Of course, 30
days a 1g would put you half way to the next star system unless half of
it was spent slowing down. 15 days acc + 15 days decel would get you 111
Au out, Pluto is only 75 au out. so if your ship can carry 50% fuel, you
can get pretty much anywhere in the solar system in 30 days. 

Now the real question; "Why is this important?"
Ans: Because this B.S. about jumping into a system 100 planetary
diameters out from your target sucks. It takes away all opportunities
for piracy. There is no reason each system couldn't just station a few
SDBs at critical locations, and completely police an entire system. If
you have to jump farther out, there are plenty of opportunities  for
piracy - of course matching velocities can become a major problem.



"History shows again and 			Brian R. Jones
again how nature points       DISCLAIM	 	bjones@vsattui.llnl.gov
out the folly of men"           THIS!		ScumPuppy (netrek)
B.O.C.						The Skaii, Sidhe (galaxy)

------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5837
Subject: Blunders
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 10:55:33 +1000
From: Pauli <grue@cs.uq.oz.au>

Rob Dean wrote:

>What a day.  As you have all noticed by now, I managed to resend the wrong
>message to the Traveller mailing list last night, which caused a panic call
>to my bank this morning to cancel my credit card. They said that this was the
>first time they'd heard of that particular blunder. (-:

Does this mean that you are not going to get the life subscriptions to readers
digest AND time magazine?  ;-)





        						Pauli

Paul Dale                       | grue@cs.uq.oz.au
Department of Computer Science  | +61 7 365 2445
University of Queensland        |
Australia, 4072                 | Did you know that there are 41 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?


------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5838
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Vargr Jump Drives
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 21:53:14 CDT

Howdy,

The joke on the Vargr jump drives?
ie Vargr jump drive:  Barium --> Bury 'em.

I don't think it would be particularly funny to the first
human explorers who contacted the Vargr.  For one thing,
I doubt the joke translates into Vilani.  For another, the
average Vilani spacer doesn't even KNOW what kind of material
is in his drives.

And, considering as this contact was made around the Eleventh
Century AD, (presumably when the Vargr stopped using Barium)
The joke would make about as much sence in the time of the
Imperium as would a similar joke about the Solmani attempts to
prove the existence of the Aether.  :-)
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
"I'm not wreckless!  I'm self-preservationally challenged!"


------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5839
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 23:05:13 -0700
From: dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov (nosnhoJ enaD)
Subject: Near Stars...

	
>From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@mercury.cs.mun.ca>
>So, does anyone out there have a listing of stars in the Terra Locale with
>some form of direction and distance information? In electronic Format? If so,
>could you mail it to me?  Thanks all.
	
Check out the FAQ for sci.astro.  The answer you seek is there (and,
interestingly, a pointer to the Traveller:2300/2300AD starmap :)

Specifically, you can ftp "The Catalogue of Stars in 25 Parsecs of the
Sun" from ames.arc.nasa.gov in pub/SPACE/FAQ/stars.data & stars.doc or
you can get the Yale Bright Star Catalogue (check the FAQ)...The 25
Parsec file has RA and parallax (1/parallax gives you the distance in
Parsecs, as I recall) plus a bunch of other info that's probably more
than you want to know...Good hunting!

Dane
	
traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."

------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5840
Subject: Background Material   3/3
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 14:59:00 -0500

(Continued from previous message)

          qualifying       average    is
          designed to keep  well-funded,
          but poorly skilled teams  from
          entering  the   race  at   the
          expense of poorly funded,  but
          highly skilled,  teams.    The
          Committee wishes to  encourage
          the  highest  skilled    teams
          possible to  participate.   It
          makes for more of a challenge,
          and  generates  more  interest
          among the public.   Within  an
          average  group,   taking   the
          highest-total-scoring    teams
          places more practiced teams in
          the   race,   increasing   the
          probability   of   competitive
          performace  (the   combination
          of  score  and  average  would

=======================================================================
=======================================================================
  I'd appreciate comment on this, and any suggestions as to 
  improving/tightening up the rules.  If you want to use this idea 
  in your campaigns, go ahead; I may just use it as a source for a 
  patron in my campaign.  If you write for any of the publications 
  that support Traveller (including any TNE sourcebooks or GDW 
  publications), and you think that they might accept a fleshed-out 
  version of what I have here, please let me know, privately, and 
  we can discuss it, privately.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.50   ~ My friends.. to the future.. the undiscovered country..


------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5841
Subject: Background Material   2/3
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 14:59:00 -0500

(Continued from previous message)

          from  affecting  the  vessel's       RATIONALE:  The  safety  of
          performance.                       the  team   members  and   the
                                             visitors to  en-route  systems
                                             is of major importance.   This
          =================================================================
          restriction minimizes risk  to       RATIONALE:    In    theory,
          both.                              proper      planning       and
            5.  Race   Travel   through      computation   of   Jumps   can
          systems  with   starports   of     control the  time    spent  in
          ratings  below   C  shall   be     jump as well  as the  distance
          prohibited.                        travelled.      In   practice,
            RATIONALE: This restriction      however, this  fine degree  of
          is   inserted   to   encourage     control  is  unavailable,  and
          strategic route planning.          the  duration  of  jumps   may
            6.    Refueling     through      vary.     We   do   not   wish
          wilderness  methods  shall  be     variances in  jump  length  to
          permitted in  all systems  en-     decide the  race.   This  also
          route.  All local  regulations     acts  to  encourage  strategic
          pertaining  to  refueling   of     route planning, as a team  may
          starships must be followed.        feel that routing through  two
            RATIONALE:  This   presents      systems with small gas  giants
          an excellent  opportunity  for     and    executing    Wilderness
          teams to  show how  they  work     Refueling in  both may  permit
          together.           Wilderness     them  to  save  time  over   a
          refueling  also      typically     single  world   with  a   busy
          takes less time than  starport     starport and  no   possibility
          refueling.   Teams may  always     of Wilderness Refueling.
          choose to  engage in  starport       9)  There   shall     be  a
          refueling, however.                maximum    of    fifty    (50)
            7.  Competing   teams   may      participating vessels  in  the
          choose   their   own    routes     race.  No  star system may  be
          between the  start and  finish     represented by  more than  one
          of the race;  all routes  must     participating  vessel  in  the
          pass through  the  systems  of     race  or  at   any  stage   of
          RHYLANOR and TRIN.                 qualification.            Each
            RATIONALE: This is  part of      participating vessel and  team
          the  ongoing  effort   between     shall  have  completed   three
          many travel,  star-sport,  and     races   designated   by    the
          tourism  organizations,    and     Committee      as   qualifying
          the   Regency    Office    for     races,   and   shall      have
          Economic Development  to  find     finished  said  races  with  a
          out why  travellers choose  to     total   of   not   less   than
          visit  some   worlds      over     eighteen    (18)    Qualifying
          others,  and   to  work   with     Points, and an average of  not
          bypassed  worlds  to   improve     less than  six (6)  Qualifying
          tourism.                           Points  per  qualifying  race.
            8. The  actual   time spent      Ten  (10)  Qualifying   Points
          in  Jump  Space  by  competing     shall be awarded for a  first-
          vessels shall  not be  counted     place   finish;    five    (5)
          against total race time.   All     Qualifying  Points  shall   be
          time  spent  in  Normal  Space     awarded  for  a   second-place
          shall be counted  for all  en-     finish; three  (3)  Qualifying
          route  locations;  at  REGINA,     Points shall be awarded for  a
          time  shall   start   when   a     third-place finish; no  points
          vessel  clears  the   starport     shall be  awarded for  fourth-
          traffic  area;   at   GLISTEN,     place or lower  finishes.   If
          time shall stop when a  vessel     more than  fifty (50)  vessels
          is  cleared   to   enter   the     qualify,  selection  shall  be
          starport traffic area.             made by accepting the highest-
          =================================================================
          average-scoring  vessels   and     tend to  indicate  consistency
          teams first.    If  there  are     of skill).
          more  vessels and teams   with
          a  particular  average   score
          than there are remaining  open
          positions in the race  roster,
          selection  shall  be  made  by
          taking the  vessels and  teams
          with the highest total  score.
          If there  are  more    vessels
          that have achieved a  specific
          score   than   there       are
          remaining  open  positions  in
          the  race  roster,   selection
          shall  be   made   by   random
          drawing among the vessels  and
          teams   with   the   specified
          score.
            RATIONALE: Qualifying races
          will be selected to  emphasize
          the     skills  and   teamwork
          needed to perform well in  the
          Glisten Cup Race.  A field  of
          fifty  provides  opportunities
          for wide  participation  while
          keeping    the    race    size
          manageable;   the  restriction
          of   one   team   per   system
          guarantees that no one  system
          can dominate  the race.    The
          low  qualifying   score   (18)
          allows teams  that    are  not
          well funded, but well skilled,
          to   have    a    chance    at
          participating.             The

(Continued to next message)
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.50   ~ My friends.. to the future.. the undiscovered country..


------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5842
Subject: Background Material   1/3
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 14:58:00 -0500

  I was in a weird mood last weekend.  A friend had rented "Gumball
  Rally" (I think that was the title), and during the after-movie 
  gab session, we somehow got onto the subject of the America's Cup 
  yacht race, and from there, to Traveller (no, I don't remember 
  how.  You don't stay sober with my friends when you watch 
  something like Gumball Rally.  Or Spaceballs).  The idea for a 
  (type Y modified) Yacht Race was played around with.  So, this 
  afternoon, the idea hit me again (I was totally sober - the NYPD 
  doesn't approve of people being inebriated on duty - not even 
  civilians), and I thought "Why not?"  So, the following is 
  reprinted with permission.  Lines of "==========" represent page 
  breaks.  Some background not given in the Stellar Seas article:

  The Glisten Cup was created in 1148 as a cooperative effort among 
  several of the economically strong planets and the Regency Office 
  for Economic Development as a way to encourage economic activity 
  (tourism) that would lift the Regency out of the post-Collapse 
  depression.  Coupled with public works projects throughout the 
  Regency, and the increased trade with the other Spinward States, 
  the effort succeeded.  Because of the duration of the race, it 
  was decided that running it annually was impractical.  A 
  four-year cycle (as needed) was felt to provide the desired 
  stimulus, and result in a manageable race system.  An attempt to 
  discontinue the race after the 1164 running resulted in such 
  protests against what had turned out to be a popular sporting 
  event that the Regency and the Coordinating Committee 
  acknowledged that it had passed into "tradition."  The 1168 race 
  was a casualty of the decision and the protests, but the race 
  returned in 1172, with news coverage in all of the Spinward 
  States.  The twelfth running in 1196 saw the team from Dinomn win 
  with an extremely unorthodox design, but protests from every 
  other participating team caused the results to be voided, and it 
  was announced that the Coordinating Committee would reexamine and 
  revise the rules for the 1200 race.  Unfortunately, the Committee 
  could not agree on rules in time to allow for proper 
  qualification races to occur, and the 1200 race went by the 
  wayside.  On 180-1200, the Committee announced that they had come 
  to a virtual agreement on new rules for the 1204 race, and that 
  they expected that the new rules would be published within the 
  next 50 days.

  Currently, the Committee is debating whether to permit teams from 
  outside the Regency to participate in the 1208 running of the 
  race.

          GLISTEN,211-1200     -     The       3. The following changes to
          following are  the  rules  and     the  standard   Yacht   design
          rationales   for   the    1204     shall be made:
          Quadrennial Glisten Cup  race.       a) The maximum interstellar
          They are  reprinted here  with     capability      shall       be
          the permission of the  Glisten     restricted to Jump-3.
          Cup Coordinating Committee and       RATIONALE:  This  virtually
          Stellar Seas, the Magazine for     mandates that strategic  route
          the    Fun-Loving    Spaceman.     planning be practiced.   There
          Additional information on  the     are  several   areas  of   the
          Glisten  Cup,  including  past     Spinward Marches  Sector  that
          winners and race rules, can be     are  inaccessible  to   Jump-3
          found  in  the  Third  Quarter     ships,    requiring    detours
          1200 issue of Stellar Seas.        around  them.    Additionally,
                                             it requires  that  lower-grade
              1204 GLISTEN CUP RULES         starports be visited en-route.
                                               b) Streamlined  hulls shall
            1. The  race  for the  year      be     permitted;     airframe
          1204 shall  be from  the  main     designs shall be prohibited.
          starport   at  REGINA  to  the       RATIONALE:   An    airframe
          main starport at GLISTEN.  The     design  is   perceived  by   a
          ship that  arrives in  minimum     majority of  the Committee  as
          time shall win.                    providing  too   much   of   a
            RATIONALE: The  Glisten Cup      performance    advantage    in
          race is  designed to  generate     Wilderness           Refueling
          interest in  stellar  yachting     maneuvers.        Streamlining
          among  the  public.    A  race     enables those same maneuvers.
          remaining in  one system  does       c)  Fuel  Purifier  Plants,
          not  present  the  opportunity     if   installed,   shall    not
          for  participating   yachtsmen     require less than   six  hours
          to exhibit their  skills in  a     to  purify  the  entire   fuel
          variety     of     conditions.     supply.  Fuel Purifier  Plants
          Additionally, the presence  of     are not required.
          de  facto  celebrities  in   a       RATIONALE: Previous designs
          system will  have  a  positive     have had extremely large FPPs;
          effect on  tourism.   This  is     the  Committee   recalls   one
          encouraged  by   the   Regency     instance where the FPP is  one
          Office      for       Economic     ship  exceeded  the    maximum
          Development.                       that another ship could carry.
            2.  All  vessels  competing      This restriction  was  imposed
          for  the   Regina  Cup   shall     to ensure  that there  was  no
          fundamentally    conform    to     way to  design a  ship with  a
          Regency standards for a  200dt     set  of  components  that  was
          (type Y)  Yacht, except  where     guaranteed to  outperform  any
          noted in these rules.              other      combination      of
            RATIONALE:  The 200dt Yacht      components.
          is large enough  to require  a       4.  Race  travel    through
          team to  operate it,  yet  not     Code  Yellow  or    Code   Red
          large enough  to  prevent  the     travel    zones    shall    be
          skills  of  all  team  members     prohibited.

(Continued to next message)
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.50   ~ My friends.. to the future.. the undiscovered country..



------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5843
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1993 00:52:04 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steve Bonneville)
Subject: Galactic Map PICT Available


For those of you who were asking, the PICT file that I drew charting the
relationship of Charted Space to the rest of the Milky Way is now available
on sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca for ftp in the directory /pub/traveller/misc.
It is a Macintosh PICT file (SuperPaint 2.0) stored in BinHex format, and
is under 20K in size.  Enjoy!
 
- --Steve Bonneville
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERNET: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu
 "Back in the good old days of gaming, there were no rules --
  only a referee with a gun and a chair."    -- David L. Arneson
- --------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Bundle: 484
Archive-Message-Number: 5844
Subject: Antigrav but no volts
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun,  1 Aug 93 22:14:00 -0500

  ::>>  >I read a book a long time ago (oh no I hear you say ... suffer!) where
  ::>>  >technology took a different path.  There was a simple law of physics t
  ::>>  >if seen would lead on to anti-grav and space flight but precluded all
  ::>>  >electrical type technology as we know it today.

  This could be interesting!  Posit this:  During the Collapse, a 
  system which had made TL13 under Imperial rule is blown back to 
  about TL2 or 3, and they have to rebuild their tech with no notes 
  (i.e., they have to reinvent it).  Now, they've somehow managed 
  to get on this tech path instead of the other one, that the 
  Imperial UWP was based on.  So, we've got a culture with space 
  flight and antigrav (which according to the standard scale means 
  TL10), but which doesn't have internal combustion or computers 
  (well, possibly computers, of the Difference Engine/Analytical 
  Engine type) or laser weapons or radio or..., which, ignoring the 
  existance of the space flight and antigrav, puts them at TL6 or 
  lower.  How do we write a UWP for this world?  Do we have to go 
  to DGP's extended generation, and use the tech profile?  Or do we 
  just dump this world into an interuniversal warp and let the 
  Space:1889 folks play with it?
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.50   ~ That was profound! I didn't understand a word.

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #485: Msgs 5845-5858 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Aug  8 22:00:03 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Aug 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #485: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 485  5845 03-Aug-1993 l.wiseman1@geni  <<      Sorry to have been away for so 
 485  5846 02-Aug-1993 Steve Gibbons    RE: Antigrav but no volts << Jeff Zeitl
 485  5847 03-Aug-1993 Stewart Eyres    Droyne << Hi
 485  5848 03-Aug-1993 Andrew Jameson   Want to join pbem << If anyone has a ga
 485  5849 03-Aug-1993 LTG3878@ZEUS.TA  Time to smell the coffee. << Speaking a
 485  5850 04-Aug-1993 l.wiseman1@geni  <<  
 485  5851 04-Aug-1993 Patrick Angus F  Your post on TML << Thank you very much
 485  5852 04-Aug-1993 Goldman of Chao  Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5845-5848 V59#8 <
 485  5853 04-Aug-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     Loren Wiseman... << Re:  Aliens and wha
 485  5854 05-Aug-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Ine Givar << The Ine Givar:
 485  5855 05-Aug-1993 Mark Urbin       Quick question on Gauss weapon recoil. 
 485  5856 05-Aug-1993 Bertil Jonell    Yatch <<   Does anyone know if deckplan
 485  5857 05-Aug-1993 Steve Bonnevill  Re: Yatch << >  Does anyone know if dec
 485  5858 06-Aug-1993 Bertil Jonell    Re: Gauss weapon recoil << > From: Mark

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5845
From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
Date: Tue,  3 Aug 93 02:58:00 BST
Subject: 

     Sorry to have been away for so long. Herewith replies and
comments to a backlog of messages:
     Re: Ine Givar
     We deliberately kept information on the Ine Givar vague. Make
them whatever your particular campaign needs them to be.
     Ralph:
     > Starship rules are conspicuous in their almost absence...this
is just so that they
     > can sell us another box set of course....
     The starship design and combat sequence was separated out
because we did not want to make the rules book too large (a $45
rules book meets considerable sales resistance) and (believe it
or not) not everybody wants starship combat and generation rules
(albeit those who do seem to be in the majority on the TML).
     > Black Curtain
     No comment. More news on this as it breaks...
     > Survival Margin...just start with new characters.....
     A fair number of Traveller players (judging from our calls and
letters) wanted to be able transfer old characters to the new
setting, so we allowed for them to do so.
     M. Samuels
     > The Imperial Sunburst has finaly sputtered and gone out.
     No it hasn't. Anyone who wants to use the pre-Rebellion
background (or any other background) can still do so using the
new rules. I'm sorry you feel that we've let you down
somehow...could you Email me privately with what it is you find
so grossly offensive about the new system, other than the fact
that it isn't Classic Traveller?
     Dane:
     > Well, I've managed to unearth a copy of Space:1889...Any
thoughts
      > on why it never caught on?
     Space: 1889 sold very well for about 18 months. Then, everyone
who wanted a copy of the rules had bought one, and sales tapered
off to a fairly low level. Sales of supporting materials
(adventures, and the like) were never as high as the rules. It is
impossible to sustain a game line
on just a rules book...a company MUST sell additional supporting
material -- and Space: 1889 supporting material didn't sell well
enough to support itself.
 IMHO, the following principles are at work:
 -- A Space: 1889 player is born, not made. The existing players
and referees are _VERY_ enthusiastic (I like the background a
great deal myself, although I think the mechanics are a little
simplistic), but you cannot convert someone to the game if they
are not interested in the milieu.
 -- Space: 1889 referees didn't buy adventures and supplements
because they didn't need them. They found ample adventuring ideas
(and still do...the game _still_ has a following, and we still
sell a few rules books from time to time) in the aformentioned
literary base (Verne, Burroughs, Haggard, et al.).
 Gregg Giles:
 >I *loved* the original Traveller system before MegaTraveller
 You are not alone. I did too.
 > When MegaTraveller came out, I lost interest...(T)oo many
rules, and complicated ones at that.
 No one at GDW ever completely understood every facet of
MegaTraveller's rules, and (IMHO) no one at Digest Group did
either. I found the task system needlessly complicated, and most
rules mechanics overladen with unnecessary details. The New Era
rules are an outgrowth of the mechanics of Twilight: 2000, which
were an evolutionary development on the original (Classic)
Traveller mechanics combined with new systems.
 >What about international intrigue (espionage)? What about
mercenary missions along the frontiers of a powerful nation?
 Adventures of this sort are still possible.
 > Loren, I know you're on the list. I've been out of the
Traveller loop for some time. The above
 > are my impressions and feelings about the matter, but if you
know, I'd appreciate
 > knowing what GDW's thinking behind TNE was.
 Here they are, from my viewpoint (others may differ slightly):
 We talk with our consumers as much as we can, and we try to
stay in touch with as many of them as we can, through letters,
electronic forums such as Internet, GEnie, and AOL, and face-to-
face. We also solicit feedback from storeowners, distributors,
and others in the sales and distribution network. Out of all the
feedback we got, three clear messages emerged about
MegaTraveller:
 1) People were no longer playing it in the numbers they once
had, i.e., long-time players were giving it up.
 2) New gamers were not joining existing groups, and new groups
were not forming.
 3) Store owners and distributors were experiencing declining
sales of new products. This meant that the game would eventually
die out (except for a small group of die-hards), and the world
would lose the best SF RPG ever created.
 One of the problems with MegaTraveller seemed to be that the
amount of material that a new gamer had to absorb in order to be
able to play the game was gigantic and growing. Everybody had to
be up to speed on the Rebellion, all of the factions, and needed
to know a massive amount of game "history" in order to be able to
enjoy the game. We heard this hundreds of times, from store
owners, referees, and players. More importantly, we heard it from
former players and former referees, in response to our "what made
you quit?" queries.
 Another factor in our decision was the increasingly difficult
task of producing material for MegaTraveller. A game will not
sell unless a company supports it with adventures, sourcebooks,
and the like, and no one at GDW (not Frank, not Marc, not me, not
Dave when he came aboard) understood how the rules worked...not
completely. This meant that we couldn't design material for our
own game...not good material anyway, and that is a situation that
could not be allowed to continue if the game was to live.
 We had a choice: do something or stand by and watch 15 years of
work go down the drain. We chose to do something.
 First, we decided to make the mechanics those of Twilight:
2000. We were all familiar with that system, and we all felt
comfortable with it.
 Second, we decided to make it so that no new player needed to
absorb the complete history of the Imperium in order to be able
to enjoy playing. The added background for the new era does that.
Notice I did not say NEW background...it merely adds to the
history, it does not completely invalidate what came before. Long-
time referees can set their campaign anywhere they want to, but
new campaigns can start without absorbing a mountain of
background.
 That's it in a nutshell. Did we make the right decision? Time
will tell, but initial sales of TNE have been VERY high, and
reception has been almost uniformly positive...we have received
many letters beginning with words to the effect of: "I had
stopped playing Traveller years ago, but TNE has made me start
again." Another widespread sentiment is that we have recaptured
the feel of the Classic Traveller...a sentiment which some on the
TML have expressed.
 > I'd like to know what the current plan's for Traveller's
future are. Are there new books
 > in the works?
 Yep. Brilliant Lances just went off to the printer, and it'll
be in the warehouse being packed and shipped by 15 August. Fire,
Fusion and Steel (the technical architecture book) will be
available in November, as will the Deluxe (boxed) Traveller Set
(which will simply be the Basic book plus FF&S and some other
goodies TBA -- and before someone else asks, yes, you will be
able to buy the parts separately).
 Adventures (as yet unnamed) are being written. You'll even see
my name on Traveller products again, something that hasn't
happened since the Classic days. I'm even doing some starships,
which I NEVER did before...the new design system has inspired me!
 > Will old books be rereleased to fit with the new environment?
 Not in the forseeable future. We will be releasing Striker II
in 1994, but we will be concentrating on RCES/Regency adventure
material and equipment sourcebooks for a while. We haven't
decided exactly how best to do aliens material yet. Anybody have
any suggestions as to how we should present the alien races, and
in what order?
 FLYNN:
 > what symbol is The Regency using?
 The Regency uses Norris' Pegasus over an Imperial star.
 > It is still possible to play Traveller anyway you desire
including a blending of all of the elements.
 Here! Here!
 Rob Dean
 > Now if only they would get around to acknowledging that I
should be credited in A:V,
 > I'd be happy...
 Belated congratulations to you and yours, Rob.
 
 I was under the impression you were satisfied with the
correction we published ca. issue #63. You should speak up more
about these things, especially if there are hard feelings. What
exactly would you like us to say?
 Matthew Goldman (re Space 1889):
 >Such a fun game.  It had the bad luck to come out as most of
the gaming wenies
 > wanted DARK FUTURE, CYBERTRASH games.  You can see how this
boring
 > trend has destroyed the Third Imperium.
 See above.
 >I don't really agree with that.  In many ways Space:1889 is
much
 >closer to Classic Traveller than T:TNE.  Just look at it:
 >
 >   Traveller      Space:1889
 >   =========      ==========
 >   Emperor Strephon    Queen Elizabeth
 That's Queen _Victoria_...Elizabeth I died in 1603,, and 1889
is a little before Elizabeth II's time.
 Martin Snow:
 > I think the reason that Space:1889 wasn't popular is because
it's a fantasy game in a
 > science-fiction setting.
 Actually, it's a science fiction game where the science is pre-
quantum mechanics. Ever consider the possibilities inherent in a
purely Newtonian universe? None of that messy stuff to get in the
way of good solid cannonball-out-the-window physics.
 > (A)re there any female characters allowed in Space:1889?  If
there are, there shouldn't
 > be (for internal consistency)
 Internal consistency with what? With the notion that Victorian
women were frail, timid creatures who never did anything exciting
or remotely dangerous? This was a common notion among middle-
class Victorian men, but the reality is more complex than myth
(ain't it usually?). I suggest that you look into the careers of
Mary Kingsley, Ethel St Clair Grimmond, Lizzie Hessel, Frances
"Fanny" Dubberly, and Elizabeth "Nelly Bly" Cochrane for 19th
century female adventurer prototypes (don't bother with General
Evelyn Wood...he wasn't a woman). I'll admit there WAS a tendency
for women to wear skirts in steaming jungles, but not everyone
can escape the shackles of their time.
  Adrian Hurt:
 >The trick with having a female character was to stay out of
the fighting and manipulate
 > all the males instead
 I played in a game with two women playing female characters. By
the end of it, the Martians came to believe that Earth was a
matriarchy because 1) the women seemed to be the most competent
characters around (all of the men in the campaign were buffoons,
myself excepted), and 2) Victoria ruled the British Empire. My
character was a German officer on an espionage mission, and I had
to think fast to keep out of trouble (claiming that the German
Emperor was Victoria nephew helped considerably).
 My favorite character had to be Cameron, a very proper British
butler, and his associated NPC, Colonel Sir Jarvis Paget-Newton-
Chandos-Forbes-Ditherby-Stoat. ("Perhaps the Colonel would care
to remove the tentacles from his legs with this machete whilst I
reload his shotgun.").
 Larry Smith:
 > Space:1889 was not intended to be "mature" - far from it.  It
was intended to
 > simulate Victorian-era heroic fiction, and it does a pretty
good job of it.
 So it does...so it does.
 Leonard.Erickson:
 > There's a *reason* why stuff like Burroughs and Wells is
getting harder to find.
 As Matt Goldman has pointed out, its not hard to find at all.
Most good bookstores carry it, as does every library worthy of
the name. Burroughs, Wells, Verne, are all there, and Kline,
Haggard and the others can be found with only a little more
effort.
 >  It's in the Public domain
 Some of it is, some of it isn't. The Burrough's estate managed
to keep copyright control of some of E. R.'s stuff, I do believe.
Just because someone has OCR-ed it and uploaded it doesn't meant
the copyright has run out.
 Re: FTL:2448/Fringeworthy:
 Fringeworthy is a neat idea for a game. I was working on
something like it at one time, but it never panned out.
 > Didn't GDW have a game called "Dinosaurs and Cadillacs", or
something similar? If so,
 > it is probably about to get re-launched in the wake of
"Jurassic Park". :-)
 Actually, Cadillacs & Dinosaurs is being re-issued in November,
to coincide with the animated television series of the same name
(on CBS, for us yanks).
 STEVE@SUNQUEST.COM:
 >OK, OK, I _Finally_ settled down with the MT Ref's manual and
looked at the
 > ship-design rules in detail...
 > I only have one question (and I know it's been asked
before...)  How the
 > H*** did this manage to get published in such a state?!?
 No comment. I wasn't involved in that project.
 Mike Basinger
 > Does anybody have a list of future Traveller and
Traveller:TNE releases.
 Yes.
 Oh...you want to see one...OK
 1993:
 Brilliant Lances        August 93 Starship Combat
 Fire, Fusion, and Steel      November 93 Technical
Architecture
 Deluxe Traveller (boxed set)      November 93 Includes basic
rules, FF&S book, and
some other goodies.
 Traveller Referee's Screen        October 93 What is says.
 Traveller Player's Forms     October 93 A collection
of handy forms and
play aids to help minimize
bookkeeping. This one
is optional.
 1994:
 Smash and Grab1st Quarter 94
 Star Viking Sourcebook (title uncertain)    1st Quarter 94
 Striker II    1994, release date uncertain
 Ship Books    1994, release date uncertain.
These will be some
books of deck plans and data,
written from
the internal fiction that they are
orientation
manuals for new ship's crew. I'm co-
writing
the first one of these, about the
Aurora-class
clippers used by the RCES.
 A Weapons Compendium, title uncertain. 1994
 A Vehicle Compendium, Ditto       1994
 Sundry Adventure booklets         1994
 Other products in not yet firmed up.   1994

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5846
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1993 21:36:19 MST
From: Steve Gibbons <steve@nereid.sunquest.com>
Reply-To: steve@sunquest.com
Subject: RE: Antigrav but no volts

Jeff Zeitlin (jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com) writes:

>  ::>>  >I read a book a long time ago (oh no I hear you say ... suffer!) where
>  ::>>  >technology took a different path.  There was a simple law of physics t
>  ::>>  >if seen would lead on to anti-grav and space flight but precluded all
>  ::>>  >electrical type technology as we know it today.

>  This could be interesting!  Posit this:  During the Collapse, a 
>  system which had made TL13 under Imperial rule is blown back to 
>  about TL2 or 3, and they have to rebuild their tech with no notes 
>  (i.e., they have to reinvent it).  Now, they've somehow managed 
>  to get on this tech path instead of the other one, that the 
>  Imperial UWP was based on.  So, we've got a culture with space 
>  flight and antigrav (which according to the standard scale means 
>  TL10), but which doesn't have internal combustion or computers 
>  (well, possibly computers, of the Difference Engine/Analytical 
>  Engine type) or laser weapons or radio or..., which, ignoring the 
>  existance of the space flight and antigrav, puts them at TL6 or 
>  lower.  How do we write a UWP for this world?  Do we have to go 
>  to DGP's extended generation, and use the tech profile?  Or do we 
>  just dump this world into an interuniversal warp and let the 
>  Space:1889 folks play with it?

Hmmm...  I'd pose a slightly different scenario.  TL blow-back to 5 or 6,
say, but the technologies that are emphasised during the re-growth period
are those that have immediate military value.  Given the relative cheapness
of life in the "Wilds", medical technology isn't quite up-to-par with weapons
and transport technology, etc.

Something else to consider: post-VIRUS worlds won't have _as_ hard a time
finding rare raw materials for _fill_in_the_blank_ since a good chunk of what
they need can be recovered from artifacts.  (So, _how_ difficult _is_ Lanthanum
to find, without a ready supply of blown-out starships?)

Just thoughts,

- --
steve@sunquest.com (SPG6)

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5847
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 14:22:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@jb.man.ac.uk>
Subject: Droyne

Hi

While tidying out my archives, I noticed a mail from someone regarding the
Psychology of Droyne, primarily asking if they had any.  I then deleted
the mail shot with the mailer's address on it.  Did anything ever come of
this question?  If so could you (anyone) let me know.  Did DGP get around
to writing anything for their planned "MegaTraveller Alien Vol. 4"?  I'm
hoping to run a campaign in which one PC is a Droyne, so any help/sources
will be appreciated.

Thanks

_____________________________________________________________________________
"Traveller Done Wrong 
	- Let's get the Fiction back into Science Fiction Roleplaying"

Stewart								N.R.A.L.
								Jodrell Bank
								Macclesfield
spe@jb.man.ac.uk						Cheshire
								SK11 9DL
____________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5848
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 17:30:06 BST
From: Andrew Jameson <acj@dcs.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: Want to join pbem

If anyone has a gap in a traveller based pbem
(not new era) that I could fill, please drop
me a line

ACJ

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5849
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 22:57:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: LTG3878@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU
Subject: Time to smell the coffee.

Speaking as a long-time fan of Classic Traveller:

Wake up and smell the coffee you guys!  Classic Traveller is dead!
I personally love the Classic Traveller setting, and have sought out
as much of the material published for the game both by GDW and others as
I can find.  But I have to admit that the game passed on because for
several very good reasons.  Classic Traveller required too many supplemental
materials, most of which were contradictory.  This game had no less than
two starship design systems, three starship combat systems, four personnel
combat systems, two trade systems, and three planetary design systems.

Obviously, a revision of some sort was necessary.  DGP compiled Striker,
Books 1 - 8, added a Task System, revamped combat, and made it all semi-
consistent.  For this, they deserve applause.  Unfortunately, the end
result was far less than usable.  By combining all the rules, they made
the learning curve very intimidating.  Furthermore, they added an environment 
that many Classic Traveller players found very uncormfortable.  Personally,
I used the MegaTrav rules in the Classic Trav setting.

So, now TNE is out.  I haven't bothered to buy it yet.  So far, people have
criticized its technical accuracy, and its setting.  The setting is optional.
I still own all my Classic Trav stuff, and will continue to use it.  But
maybe I'll get creative and play a Rebellion campaign if I feel like it.  Or
even a Virus campaign!  Why not!

As regards the technical accuracy, give GDW and Loren a break!  I speak as
a physics graduate student when I say that Traveller is very enjoyable Space
Fantasy, that leans to the technically plausible.  Could we please have some
constructive suggestions around here?  Its easy to be negative, lets try to
be positive for a change!

Just to put my money where my mouth is, here is an Amber Zone setting, ala
the old Travellers' Journal:

You are one of the crew and co-owner of the Type A2 Far Trader Boundless.
That risk you took on a cargo hold full of chrome-plated fishing poles turned
into a total loss.  This, combined with the overall bad luck you and your
crewmates have had this past year, mean that you have come close to defaulting
on your bank loan.  But at the last minute, opportunity shows itself.  One of
your crewmates has made contact with someone willing to pay top credit to a
ship willing to translate a cargo of unknown origin off of a nearby Red Zone
planet.  Despite misgivings, your and your crewmates decide to go for it.
Possible results are:
1) The offer turns out to be a double-cross.  The cargo should be suitably
   valuable. At some point during the transaction, an attempt will be
   made to capture the vessel.
2) The offer turns out to be a trap.  The subsector security forces attempt
   to arrest the crew shortly after they arrive at the Red Zoned system.
3) The offer is genuine.  By bad luck, a subsector security force patrol 
   craft will be encountered while the crew are in the Red Zoned system.
4) The offer is genuine.  The cargo consists of some of the local sentients.
   The crew should be made aware of this fact, and be faced with the moral
   delimma of whether to participate in the slave trade or not.
5) The offer is genuine.  Some months after the transaction, an unknown man
   contacts a member of the crew, and threatens to inform the authorities
   of their law-breaking activities.
6) The offer is genuine.  The planet turns out to be protected by a picket
   satellite, which is armed with a large number of missiles.  Use the 
   following task, to be thrown once while landing on the planet, and again
   when departing:
   To successfully evade the picket satellite:
   Routine, Pilot, Ships Tactics, 30 minutes.
   Referee:  If this task fails, the sattellite makes one missile attack on
   the ship at long range.  If anything less than extreme success, the 
   sattellite makes a holovideo of the ship, and records any transmissions
   made by the ship (including the transponder, if active).

					Late, y'all.

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5850
From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
Date: Wed,  4 Aug 93 04:36:00 BST
Subject: 

 
 NOTE TO PRESENT AND POTENTIAL SOFTWARE AUTHORS
mpression is being circulated on the TML --
rom a private Email):
f the TML...have informed me that GDW has
 general consent to all on the list to write
e and distribute it as long as a notice to the effect
e source information
's.
s _NOT_ completely correct. You must ask specific permission,
 and receive a specific answer before you go ahead.
s NEVER granted anyone _general_ permission to use its
or copyrights, although we have often granted
ic_ permission. We are advised that this is necessary to
ghts to our intellectual property.
erable trouble getting an Email answer to Anthony,
o not completely understand, not being all that
he way Internet works, but I did eventu

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5851
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 93 09:35:45 -0400
From: sco@po.cwru.edu (Patrick Angus Flynn, MKA  Sean C. O'Toole)
Subject: Your post on TML

Thank you very much for answering all of the questions that you did about
the Traveller: The New Era system and Space: 1889.  I really enjoyed your
responses to the questions, and since you seem to be someone who knows
these things I need to ask one more question.  Is there any thought to
putting out a purely player oriented rules suplement?  I like my players to
have access to the rules, but the price and size of the main book are
prohibitive.  Also there are refferee only sections in the main book that
the players should not have access to.  This leaves me in a precarious
situation.  I either photocopy (Completely in violation of copyright.) the
appropriate sections of the rule book, or wait and see if GDW releases one.
 This was one of the things that I liked about the MegaTraveller system was
that you could buy the boxed set, with all three of the main books or buy
them individually if you did not need the referee stuff.  I appreciate you
taking the time to answer this query.

Sean C. O'Toole
- --
Sean C. O'Toole    | Theta Chi Fraternity | In Service to the Dragon Throne
Political Science  |   Beta Nu  Chapter   |       Patrick Angus Flynn
sco@po.CWRU.Edu    |   "Men Since 1856"   |    House "to be named later"
Go POSC - xx087    | CWRU - Go Spartans!! |    Barony of  the Cleftlands
       "All I ask is for a tall ship, and a star to steer her by."


------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5852
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5845-5848 V59#8
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 93 9:11:32 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com said the following:
> Bundle: 485
> Archive-Message-Number: 5845
> From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
> Date: Tue,  3 Aug 93 02:58:00 BST
> Subject: 
> 
>  IMHO, the following principles are at work:
>  -- A Space: 1889 player is born, not made. The existing players
> and referees are _VERY_ enthusiastic (I like the background a
> great deal myself, although I think the mechanics are a little
> simplistic), but you cannot convert someone to the game if they
> are not interested in the milieu.

Sadly very true.  Most people get this glazed look in their eyes and then
edge away from me when I start talking about Space: 1889.

>  One of the problems with MegaTraveller seemed to be that the
> amount of material that a new gamer had to absorb in order to be
> able to play the game was gigantic and growing. Everybody had to
> be up to speed on the Rebellion, all of the factions, and needed
> to know a massive amount of game "history" in order to be able to
> enjoy the game. We heard this hundreds of times, from store
> owners, referees, and players. More importantly, we heard it from
> former players and former referees, in response to our "what made
> you quit?" queries.

MegaTraveller reminded me of a campaign gone sour.  Like when the players
go off on a weird tangent that they can't really return from.

>  Second, we decided to make it so that no new player needed to
> absorb the complete history of the Imperium in order to be able
> to enjoy playing. The added background for the new era does that.
> Notice I did not say NEW background...it merely adds to the
> history, it does not completely invalidate what came before. Long-
> time referees can set their campaign anywhere they want to, but
> new campaigns can start without absorbing a mountain of
> background.

The problem is that the only new material that will be out of GDW
will be stuff based upon the post-virus universe.  Leaving those of
us who don't like the current direction of the Imperium in the same
shoes as those of us who play/run Space: 1889.  

>  That's it in a nutshell. Did we make the right decision? Time
> will tell, but initial sales of TNE have been VERY high, and
> reception has been almost uniformly positive...we have received
> many letters beginning with words to the effect of: "I had
> stopped playing Traveller years ago, but TNE has made me start
> again." Another widespread sentiment is that we have recaptured
> the feel of the Classic Traveller...a sentiment which some on the
> TML have expressed.

That is what really drives any business that is going to stick around,
money.  If it sells, great.

>  Matthew Goldman (re Space 1889):
>  >Such a fun game.  It had the bad luck to come out as most of
> the gaming wenies
>  > wanted DARK FUTURE, CYBERTRASH games.  You can see how this
> boring
>  > trend has destroyed the Third Imperium.
>  See above.

	Money again.

>  >I don't really agree with that.  In many ways Space:1889 is
> much
>  >closer to Classic Traveller than T:TNE.  Just look at it:
>  >
>  >   Traveller      Space:1889
>  >   =========      ==========
>  >   Emperor Strephon    Queen Elizabeth
>  That's Queen _Victoria_...Elizabeth I died in 1603,, and 1889
> is a little before Elizabeth II's time.

	I hide my head in shame at what my fingers typed.

>  As Matt Goldman has pointed out, its not hard to find at all.
> Most good bookstores carry it, as does every library worthy of
> the name. Burroughs, Wells, Verne, are all there, and Kline,
> Haggard and the others can be found with only a little more
> effort.
>  >  It's in the Public domain
>  Some of it is, some of it isn't. The Burrough's estate managed
> to keep copyright control of some of E. R.'s stuff, I do believe.
> Just because someone has OCR-ed it and uploaded it doesn't meant
> the copyright has run out.

Has anyone put together a good reading list of Victorian time period
adventures?

>  Actually, Cadillacs & Dinosaurs is being re-issued in November,
> to coincide with the animated television series of the same name
> (on CBS, for us yanks).

Sigh, and I just picked up a used copy of C&D at the same time as
I bought a used copy of TNE.


- -- 
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

           The sight of a laser dot can have a strong
               psychological impact on the target.

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5853
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 93 22:31:21 -0700
From: dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov (nosnhoJ enaD)
Subject: Loren Wiseman...


Re:  Aliens and what to do about 'em...

Well, speaking for myself, I'd like to suggest putting *all* the "core"
aliens into one sourcebook.  I'd suggest putting in, at least:

Aslan, Vargr, Droyne, Hiver, K'kree, Zhodani, and Darrians (and possibly
Solomani, although that might now be a moot point considering the likely
state of the Solomani Confederation)

(All the Alien books, obviously :)

A friend of mine points out that this might be a somewhat "hard sell",
since it's likely to be a pretty hefty book.  I think most existing
and prospective Traveller players would go for such a product if for no
other reason that you ought to have aliens in an SF game :)  My friend
disagrees....<Shrug>

On a side note, some/more detail on some of the minor races might be
welcome.  On an even farther side note, how 'bout a Sword Worlds
sourcebook?

Then again, maybe I'm pushing for too much detail in the setting,
instead of allowing the players to detail it themselves...<Shrug>

Re: Your post concerning Software...

Huh?  That was a tad garbled.  I take it that you want people to ask
before distributing Traveller software and/or making it Public Domain?


Dane
traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5854
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Ine Givar
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 13:30:06 CDT

The Ine Givar:

Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Yes, one of my fave terrorist organizations.  I know Loren just
said they were deliberately vague on 'em, but I always got the
impression that they were the Pro-Psionic Rights terrorist group of
the Imperium.  (Yeah, I know, but I started this before Red Star
was ever put on the maps)  My initial assumption was based on the
fact that he very moral Zhodani were willing to back them.

As their groups were at least partially composed of psionic adepts
it made the group very subversive.  Consider.  The Imperium would
need to use what knowlege of psionics it had to fight them.  That
means they use the few trained psionics they have.  Now, as the Ine
Givar will loudly claim, they are fighting for the rights of the
very people who are hunting them!

The Ine Givar had legitimate organizations and lobby groups running
around the Imperium (trying not to get lynched) bringing lawsuits
against the Imperial prohibitions on Psionics.  There were all
kinds of peaceful demonstrations:  sit-ins... marches...  voting
drives...  rallies...  fund raising parties...

And of course there's Saint Sinn's Day on 073:  Sinn was martyred
on the first day of the Psionic suppressions back in the 700s.
Everyone marches in parades, wears something blue, get excedingly
drunk on blue beer, etc. etc.  The Ine Givar have made this holiday
their national day and a great deal of their activity occurs on
that day.  It's the one day where most people feel proud of any
ethnic connection they might have to the psionic saint of Esalin.
Of course anyone who wears red (symbolizing the blood of Sinn) may
be subject to harrassment.

I remember one PC who after learning what the Ine Givar were REALLY
up to looked up and said, "Why are we fighting these guys?  Why
aren't we HELPING them!..."

 ...Then I had the Ine Givar blow up another shopping mall full of
civilians and massacre the entire crew and passengers of a
subsidized liner...  |->
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
"I'm not wreckless!  I'm self-preservationally challenged!"


------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5855
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 14:21:27 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com>
Subject: Quick question on Gauss weapon recoil.



  Just a quick question that someone better versed in physics than I can 
answer.  Why do guass rifles/pistols have a recoil value at all?
As I understand it, a rifle that uses gunpowder has recoil because of the
expanding gasses pushing back against the breach of the weapon (with the
equal but opposite force shoving the bullet down the barrel).

  A guass rifle works by pulling the bullet down the barrel with an
electromagnetic field.  Thus, no pressure agains the breech.  I'm I missing
something really basic here?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin  Racal-Interlan   Boxborough, MA  These opinions are mine.
"Constitutional rights may not be infringed simply because the majority of 
the people choose that they be." -U.S. Supreme Court in Westbrook v. Mihaly  
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5856
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Yatch
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 21:16:02 +0200 (MET DST)

  Does anyone know if deckplans for the yatch has been published anywhere?

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5857
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 23:46:17 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steve Bonneville)
Subject: Re: Yatch


>  Does anyone know if deckplans for the yatch has been published anywhere?

Yeah, they have.  About eleven years ago, though!  The deck plans for the
standard _Lady of Shallott_ class Type Y Yacht were published in FASA's
_Adventure Class Ships, Vol. II_ at 25mm scale back in '82.  Like a lot
of the old deck plans they needed a bit of cleaning up, IMHO.  I prefer 
the plans in Vol. I of the non-standard 400 ton _Desiree Keah_ class 
yacht.  The whole bow of the ship was a two-deck ballroom with transparent
bulkheads!

For the non-oldtimers, the FASA _Adventure Class_ volumes were boxed sets
with five sheets of deckplans at 25mm scale that could be unfolded and
used for miniatures combat with "Martian Metal Miniatures, Azhanti High
Lightning [the game], Snapshot Rules, [and] Striker Miniature Rules" or
the included counters.  They date back to the days when FASA was still
occasionally referring to itself as the "Freedonian Air and Space 
Administration".  The deck plans were printed on both sides of the sheet,
so you got ten classes of ship with each set.

The two volumes are hard to find -- I stumbled on them in a used book 
store that I've *never* seen carry any other games.  Good luck finding
something more recent!


- --Steve Bonneville
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERNET: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu
 "Back in the good old days of gaming, there were no rules --
  only a referee with a gun and a chair."    -- David L. Arneson
- --------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Bundle: 485
Archive-Message-Number: 5858
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Re: Gauss weapon recoil
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 12:20:10 +0200 (MET DST)

> From: Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com>
> Subject: Quick question on Gauss weapon recoil.
 
>   Just a quick question that someone better versed in physics than I can 
> answer.  Why do guass rifles/pistols have a recoil value at all?
> As I understand it, a rifle that uses gunpowder has recoil because of the
> expanding gasses pushing back against the breach of the weapon (with the
> equal but opposite force shoving the bullet down the barrel).
> 
>   A guass rifle works by pulling the bullet down the barrel with an
> electromagnetic field.  Thus, no pressure agains the breech.  I'm I missing
> something really basic here?

  Yes, momentum. If you take something that is standing still and throw it
forward you will go backwards regardless of *how* you throw it. But don't
worry, the New York Times made the same error once in an editorial about
Goddard:)

  The recoil of a gauss weapon of a specific damage will however often be
*less* than for a conventional weapon of the same damage, because first of all
you don't throw bullet+gasses but just the bullet. This should reduce it by
25 percent or so.
  Secondly, speaking 3G3, gauss weapons have more slender projectiles that
penetrate better for a given energy, so to get a specific penetration and
a specific damage, you can make do with a lighter projectile, also reducing
recoil.
  I suspect that adding both effects will aproximately halve recoil compared
to a conventional weapon of equal damage.
 
> Mark Urbin  Racal-Interlan   Boxborough, MA  These opinions are mine.
 
- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #486: Msgs 5859-5873 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Aug 11 22:00:03 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #486: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 486  5859 06-Aug-1993 R.W. Moore       Re: Gauss Weapon Recoil << >  Just a qu
 486  5860 05-Aug-1993 Bryce Harringto  Quick question on Gauss weapon recoil. 
 486  5861 06-Aug-1993 Brian Jones      recoil << Mark Urbin writes:
 486  5862 07-Aug-1993 l.wiseman1@geni  <<    A NOTE TO PRESENT AND POTENTIAL S
 486  5863 07-Aug-1993 Mark Watson      Various << [ Loren Wiseman says no alie
 486  5864 08-Aug-1993 helm@topaz.ucda  LONG: GDW, Zhodani, the Rebellion << GD
 486  5865 09-Aug-1993 Stewart Eyres    Glottal stop << A friend of mine has a 
 486  5866 09-Aug-1993 "Ed Sharpe"      Re: Yatch 15mm not 25mm! << > 485  5857
 486  5867 09-Aug-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     News Dispatches <<   I've decided that 
 486  5868 10-Aug-1993 Steve Bonnevill  Re: Yacht 15mm not 25mm! << >>For the n
 486  5869 10-Aug-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Zhodani & the Tavrchedl' << So ya wanna
 486  5870 10-Aug-1993 helm@geology.uc  Tavrchedl' vis-a-vis Judge Dread << I c
 486  5871 10-Aug-1993 LTG3878@ZEUS.TA  Yacht Deckplans << Someone wanted to kn
 486  5872 11-Aug-1993 Anthony Neal     Missiles again... << Hello there:
 486  5873 11-Aug-1993 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Zhodani oppression << I've felt all alo

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5859
From: rwm12@cus.cam.ac.uk (R.W. Moore)
Subject: Re: Gauss Weapon Recoil
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 15:42:38 +0100 (BST)

>  Just a quick question that someone better versed in physics than I can 
> answer.  Why do guass rifles/pistols have a recoil value at all?
> As I understand it, a rifle that uses gunpowder has recoil because of the
> expanding gasses pushing back against the breach of the weapon (with the
> equal but opposite force shoving the bullet down the barrel).
> 
>   A guass rifle works by pulling the bullet down the barrel with an
> electromagnetic field.  Thus, no pressure agains the breech.  I'm I missing
> something really basic here?
>

What you are missing is Newton's third law. "To every force there is and equal
and opposite reaction." To accelerate a bullet you require a force and so there
will be an equal and opposite force on the gun. The fact the these forces
come from magnetism instead of expanding gas is irrelevant. In effect, as well
as the gun pushing out the bullet, the gun pushes itself away from the
bullet - causing a recoil. 

Roger

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5860
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 21:59:31 PDT
From: bharring@scf.usc.edu (Bryce Harrington)
Subject: Quick question on Gauss weapon recoil.

>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com>
>Subject: Quick question on Gauss weapon recoil.

>  Just a quick question that someone better versed in physics than I can 
>answer.  Why do guass rifles/pistols have a recoil value at all?
>As I understand it, a rifle that uses gunpowder has recoil because of the
>expanding gasses pushing back against the breach of the weapon (with the
>equal but opposite force shoving the bullet down the barrel).
>
>  A guass rifle works by pulling the bullet down the barrel with an
>electromagnetic field.  Thus, no pressure agains the breech.  I'm I missing
>something really basic here?

Well, some guy named Newton once said that 'For every action there is
an equal but opposite reaction'.  In other words, if a force is being
applied to the bullet, no matter the source of that force, there must
be another force acting against it.  You say that there is no 'pressure'
against the breech, but the electromagnetic field produces a force to
cause the bullet to accellerate, and this field must cause an equal
but opposite force to act on the barrel.  Now, if we're talking 'impulse',
well, that's a different story.

You may be getting confused with the similarity between the gauss gun and
the rocket launcher (or Bazooka, as I like to think of it).  A rocket
launcher is a tube open at both ends in which you place a small rocket.
The rocket accellerates without putting much recoil on the user.  Why?
Well, the rocket operates by accellerating small particles (exhaust)
in the opposite direction of it's direction.  An equal but opposite force
is applied to the rocket and causes it to accellerate forward.

Confusing, isn't it?  It's things like this that turns Engineering
majors into Business majors ;-).

No, I am not a Physics major, but as an Aerospace Engineer, I use that
law all the time.  So I _do_ know what I'm talking about.  ;-)

Bryce Harrington
The Aerospace Corporation
Flight Dynamics Department

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5861
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 12:02:37 -0700
From: bjones@wente.llnl.gov (Brian Jones)
Subject: recoil

Mark Urbin writes:
 
 Bundle: 485
 Archive-Message-Number: 5855
 Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 14:21:27 -0400
 From: Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com>
 Subject: Quick question on Gauss weapon recoil.
 
 
 
   Just a quick question that someone better versed in physics than I can 
 answer.  Why do guass rifles/pistols have a recoil value at all?
 As I understand it, a rifle that uses gunpowder has recoil because of the
 expanding gasses pushing back against the breach of the weapon (with the
 equal but opposite force shoving the bullet down the barrel).
 
   A guass rifle works by pulling the bullet down the barrel with an
 electromagnetic field.  Thus, no pressure agains the breech.  I'm I missing
 something really basic here?
 
 - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mark Urbin  Racal-Interlan   Boxborough, MA  These opinions are mine.
 "Constitutional rights may not be infringed simply because the majority of 
 the people choose that they be." -U.S. Supreme Court in Westbrook v. Mihaly  
 - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well Mark, what we have here is a simple case of Newton's second law.
The Electomagnetic force from the gun on the projectile can be see (and
is) as a force from the projectile on the gun. If you figure a 1 meter
barrel (which is actually longer than it probably is ) and the published
muzzle velocity of 1500 m/s. You can calculate the accelleration from
a=v^2/(2s) = 1.125E6 m/s^2. This is going to result in a recoil force of
F=ma where I assume the projectile is about 10 grams, making the recoil
force 1.125E4 Newtons which is the mass equivilent of 1.125 metric tons.

Quite a kick huh?
 
|------------------------ "History shows again and  ------------------------|
|       DISCLAIM           again how nature points       Brian R. Jones     |
|         THIS!	           out the folly of men"    bjones@vsattui.llnl.gov |
|------------------------  B.O.C.                   ------------------------|

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5862
From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
Date: Sat,  7 Aug 93 04:32:00 BST
Subject: 

   A NOTE TO PRESENT AND POTENTIAL SOFTWARE AUTHORS
  A mistaken impression is being circulated on the TML --
  Anthony S. Neal (from a private Email):
  >a few members of the TML...have informed me that GDW has
  > previously given general consent to all on the list to write
  > software and distribute it as long as a notice to the
  > effect that all trademarks and copyrights on the source
  > information are GDW's.
  This is _NOT_ correct. You must ask specific permission, each
  time, and receive a specific answer before you go ahead.
  GDW has NEVER granted anyone _general_ permission to
  use its trademarks or copyrights, although we have often
  granted _specific_ permission. We are advised that this is
  necessary to preserve our rights to our intellectual property.
  I had considerable trouble getting an Email answer to Anthony,
  for reasons I do not completely understand, not being all that
  familiar with the way Internet works, but I did eventually get
  him a letter of permission.
   To expand a bit: It is OK with us if you write programs _solely
 for your own use_ that incorporate our copyrighted material
 without asking. If you want to give the program away or make it
 available for the asking/taking on a net, please ask me first,
 and I'll get back to you with the statement you have to include
 in order to preserve GDW's rights.
  Commercial inquiries are also welcome. Call us and we'll talk.
 Movie producers are our specialty.
  *****************
  Re: Time to smell the coffee.
  Thanks.
   *****************
   > The problem is that the only new material that will be out of
   > GDW will be stuff based upon the post-virus universe.
  This is going to be the case for the forseeable future, I'm
 afraid. We need to concentrate on RCES and Regency material for a
 while. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Classic Traveller
 material eventually appearing in Challenge, however, anything is
 possible.
  > That is what really drives any business that is going to
  > stick around, money.  If it sells, great.
  Yep. I'd rather be employed than unemployed.
  > I hide my head in shame at what my fingers typed.
  Feel not asham'd. Verily, I had a friend who once mistook the
 Empress Mathilda for Margaret of Anjou. Ah, the goodly jest we
 had at _his_ expense!
  > Has anyone put together a good reading list of Victorian time
  >  period adventures?
 
 Not that I know of. Are we limited to material written _by_
 Victorians?
  Finally, a slightly less garbled version of our upcoming
 products list.
   1993:
   Brilliant Lances                 August 93 Starship Combat
   Fire, Fusion, and Steel          November 93 Technical Architecture
   Deluxe Traveller (boxed set)     November 93 Includes basic
                                     rules, FF&S book, and
                                     some other goodies.
   Traveller Referee's Screen        October 93 What it says.
   Traveller Player's Forms          October 93 A collection of
                                     handy forms and play aids to
                                     help minimize bookkeeping.
                                     This one is optional.
   1994:
   Smash and Grab (adventure)        1st Quarter 94
   Star Viking Sourcebook            1st Quarter 94
   Striker II                        1994, release date uncertain
   Ship Books                        1994, release date uncertain.
                                     These will be some books of
                                     deck plans and data, written
                                     from the internal fiction that
                                     they are orientation manuals
                                     for new ship's crew. I'm co-
                                     writing the first one of
                                     these, about the Aurora-
                                     class clippers used by the
                                     RCES.
   A Weapons Compendium              1994
   A Vehicle Compendium              1994
  Sundry Adventure & Other products  1994

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5863
Date: 07 Aug 93 21:09:33 EDT
From: Mark Watson <100022.3361@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Various

[ Loren Wiseman says no aliens supplements planned ]
I also see this in Challenge. Is it because GDW expect to lose interest 
in the game before they could complete the series? ;-) The aliens stuff 
is unfortunately key to this kind of game. If you started with 
Megatraveller then for a long time you were sold short in 2 key areas - 
aliens and robotics. Please don't do the same with TNE. Right from the 
beginnings of Traveller the demand has been for background material, 
but most of the plan in Loren's note says wargames, hardware and more 
wargames. Now I guess that that is what some key people in GDW enjoy 
doing and what they are best at. but don't lose sight of the other 
stuff.

Speaking of Challenge, I just acquired 69. I liked much of the 
Traveller material, however, some peeves:
- - continued practice of printing gushing letters that wholeheartedly 
endorse the party line. Or maybe that's all the letters they get.
- - about half the MT material I already paid for when I bought Survival 
Margin.
- - suddenly we are padding it with a 3 page movie review column. Why? 
Aren't there movie review magazines for this kind of thing? And this is 
a magazine that has gone bimonthly!

[ Matt Goldman, in response to Loren, says that most of the material to 
be published from now on will be post-virus ]
Yes, but GDW can continue to support their pre-virus customer base and 
I'm encouraged by the TNE book itself - the subsector data includes 
both pre and post virus stats. The only place I have seen any lapse in 
this policy is in the Antares data in Challenge 69, which only provides 
Hard Times stats (hands up everyone playing Hard Times based campaigns. 
Now hands up everyone enjoying them). By the way, compare the space 
taken up by subsector data in TNE with that in Challenge.

Most background material should hopefully still include pre virus 
information as historical data. Hopefully the lesson was learnt with 
the Diaspora supplement - which, stats apart, only detailed the current 
(Hard Times) situation and provided zero real background color, and was 
as a result awful.

Mark



------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5864
From: helm@topaz.ucdavis.edu
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 93 16:54:48 PDT
Subject: LONG: GDW, Zhodani, the Rebellion

GDW:
First, I'd like to say I've really liked reading Loren Wiseman's
replies to comments on the TML.  This time last year, I was feeling
quite discouraged by what seemed to be a general lack of interest
and/or antipathy on the part of GDW in what TML participants thought.
Loren's interest and thoughtful answers have dispelled that feeling
for the most part.  I look forward to Loren's and GDW's continued
interest in TML commentary.

Zhodani:
Mostly due to my friend, Scott "2G", I took an interest in the Zhodani
after reading parts of his _4.5th Frontier War_.  Jim Kelleher and I
have spent many pleasant hours evolving an adventure putting five of
our "Denebian" imperials from Spinward on a shared mission with a bunch
of Zhodani.  (The setting is post-Rebellion, but pre-TNE - more on this
later.)  Since we're both deeply into character-developement and role-
playing, we've discussed at length how the neo-Regency and Zhodani cultures 
clash.  We've come to a few basic conclusions, which make us happy, though 
I'm sure other Zhodani fans may disagree.  (Feel free to disagree!  After
all, this is our version of a Traveller universe - yours has every right
to be different  :-)

I don't want to hog too much post-space, so I'll restrict my comments for
now to the Tavrchedl': right off the bat, we decided the glottal stop after 
the "l" on the end of the word is impossible to pronounce. I myself tend to 
drop it when writing up our adventure summaries. Trivial comments aside, we 
feel that based on the write up in the old Traveller Alien Module 4, the 
Tavrchedl' is kind of like Judge Dread. The Tavrchedl' officer comes knocking 
on your prole's door in the middle of the night, and takes you away for 
adjustment, being essentially judge, jury and "executioner" (metaphorically 
speaking). <I bet the Zhodani don't have lawyers!  ;-)  >  To have such wide 
powers over the population, the Tavrchedl' must be damn near omnipotent in 
Zhodani society (and if you don't like it, the Tavrchedl' will come and 
"counsel" you to adopt a more healthy viewpoint...).

We've also decided that individual members of the Tvarchedl' must be
rather rightious and upstanding moral individuals, very dedicated to
insuring the health and happiness of Zhodani society.  After all,
people who need re-education are actually unwell in their
heads, and the Tavrchedl' exists to help them get over their mental
illness.  That's a pretty major head trip, and most Tvarchedl' officers 
really believe in their organization's mission.  Where the Tavrchedl'
must view themselves as being the good-guys (after all, it's their job
to insure the health and happiness of all Zhodani society), most imperials
think of them as the thought police, who contain and oppress the Zhodani
population through thought control.  A tavrchedl' officer 
confronted with an emotionally distraught (from the Zhodani view-point) 
imperial would probably be inclined to "help" that person into a more 
"normal" (ie, generic peaceful Zhodani) and healthy state - this sort of
interaction is ripe for misunderstanding.

An example:

	<  "I can't help but pick up on how violent you feel towards
            your mother-in-law.  This kind of anger and hatred toward
            a family member causes much dissention and unhappiness in
            your home - I'm sure you have noticed it yourself," the
            tavrchedl' officer said kindly.  "A happy home life is
            essential for your well-being.  Please, it would only take
            a day or two for me to reconcile you and your mother-in-law,
            and to adjust your home to a more harmonious state," he
            offered sincerely.

           "No!!!  I've heard all about the way you use thought control
            on your own people!   I don't want to turn into a brainless
            automaton!  Stay away from my head, you evil brain-sucking 
            Zho!  Arhg!"   > 

Ah, character clashes - the spice of role playing...   ;->
Comments on how other people play Zhos are always appreciated.

The Rebellion
From reading the TML, I get the feeling that I must belong to an atypical
traveller group.  We've been playing in the Rebellion setting in Spinward
for several years now, and enjoyed it greatly.  On the otherhand, the
people I play with seem to enjoy political intrique, societal uncertainly,
and intense role-playing - all of which fall out of the rebellion 
background.  I have noticed that the whole "hard times" flavor of the
rebellion gets editted out of our scenarios, though, and I think this is
an implicit decision on the part of the Ref and players.  Playing in
Spinward probably helps buffer the whole "hard times" schtick.  I'm in
two campaigns right now, one set in late 1118 (for the moment) and one
that's run up to 1130  (which started in 1127 on Delphi, and has proceded
continuously to take the characters into Zhodani space).  Both involve
Zhodani; the latter takes a hard look at how the Denebian imperials
react to the sudden Zhodani about-face and peace overtures.

I've not noticed that we have problems bringing new players into our
traveller games, even with the vast onus of traveller history and material
that's out there.  We have two new traveller players in a campiagn right
now.  The Ref gave them some basic ground rules, and there is occassional
coaching in background during gaming sessions, but in general it's never
looked like that big of a problem to me.  If you break your players in
right, they don't get swamped.  On the other hand, if you give them 
over fifteen years of traveller reading to do, they'd probably go running
from your campaign screaming and never return to traveller.

Having played in previous "classic" traveller campaigns and in Rebellion
ones, I've never noticed a significant difference between the two.  I
suspect, however, that the quality of the games has had a lot to do with
the quality of the refs.  I have come to the opinion that the "traveller
flavor" of the games, regardless of time-period or rules set, has far
more to do with having a good ref than it does with the imperial date
or the specific rules used.  Just an opinion, folks.

I suspect we may try out the TNE rules in the 1118 campaign sometime
soon.  As many people have already pointed out, you don't have to play
in the new-era to have a traveller campaign, even with the new rule set.
This post has gotten long enough!  See ya'!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catie Helm
Stable Isotope Lab, University of California, Davis
helm@geology.ucdavis.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5865
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 15:26:45 +0100 (BST)
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@jb.man.ac.uk>
Subject: Glottal stop

A friend of mine has a copy of the Klingon Dictionary, which suggests (for
that language) that the ' indicates that the letter or sylable immediately
before is almost repeated after a short pause, as if echoed.  Thus
Tavrchedl' might be pronounced with the l repeated in a subdued manner. 
I'm quoting the Dictionary from memory, so I may be wrong; also Zhos are
not Klingons :-}

_____________________________________________________________________________
"Traveller Done Wrong 
	- Let's get the Fiction back into Science Fiction Roleplaying"

Stewart								N.R.A.L.
								Jodrell Bank
								Macclesfield
spe@jb.man.ac.uk						Cheshire
								SK11 9DL
____________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5866
From: "Ed Sharpe" <esharpe@hsc.usc.edu>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 09:20:37 PDT
Subject: Re: Yatch 15mm not 25mm!

> 485  5857 05-Aug-1993 Steve Bonnevill  Re: Yatch << >  Does anyone know if dec

>Yeah, they have.  About eleven years ago, though!  The deck plans for the
>standard _Lady of Shallott_ class Type Y Yacht were published in FASA's
>_Adventure Class Ships, Vol. II_ at 25mm scale back in '82.  Like a lot
                                     ^ 15mm not 25mm

>of the old deck plans they needed a bit of cleaning up, IMHO.  I prefer 
>the plans in Vol. I of the non-standard 400 ton _Desiree Keah_ class 
>yacht.  The whole bow of the ship was a two-deck ballroom with transparent
>bulkheads!
   A very nice yacht!

>
>For the non-oldtimers, the FASA _Adventure Class_ volumes were boxed sets
>with five sheets of deckplans at 25mm scale that could be unfolded and
                                 ^  15mm scale!
>used for miniatures combat with "Martian Metal Miniatures, Azhanti High
>Lightning [the game], Snapshot Rules, [and] Striker Miniature Rules" or
>the included counters.  They date back to the days when FASA was still
>occasionally referring to itself as the "Freedonian Air and Space 
>Administration".  The deck plans were printed on both sides of the sheet,
>so you got ten classes of ship with each set.

Unfourntanly one can not find 15mm si-fi miniatures now days and everyone
seems to be moving towards 25mm.  I miss 15mm.

esharpe@phad.hsc.usc.edu
//****************************
//* esharpe@phad.hsc.usc.edu
//****************************

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5867
Subject: News Dispatches
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon,  9 Aug 93 18:23:00 -0500

  I've decided that I'd like to share material that I make up to
  provide some depth to my universe, and/or to encourage my party 
  to take specific actions, or go into specific areas.  The Glisten 
  Cup articles were one such item (I'm sorry they got inserted in 
  reverse order; I hope nobody had any problem putting them back 
  together).  This is another.  Enjoy, or not, and comment, or 
  not, as you see fit.
  ==================================================================
  BUREAU OF PLANETARY AFFAIRS                  FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
  GALOS CITY, TUREDED (SPINWARD MARCHES 2414)

  221-1200 - A major earthquake, estimated at a Richter rating of 
  at least 8.5, has occurred along the Shugara fault on southern 
  Enlid continent.  Damage to Tobilu, the continental capital, is 
  reported to be massive, and all areas of Enlid continent have 
  experienced varying degrees of major damage.  Seismic stations 
  all over the planet have registered the quake, the strongest in 
  planetary history.  The government is moving into Enlid continent 
  to maintain order; however, the amount of damage makes it 
  necessary to ask for any and all assistance, from on or off 
  planet, that can be obtained.  An application for Regency 
  Disaster Area status is being filed with the Regency Quarantine 
  Service/Scout Service, and a Planetary Disaster Area has been 
  declared, encompassing all of Enlid continent.

  As an indication of the government's appreciation of any and all 
  assistance, the following measures shall apply to all ships 
  providing assistance for the duration of the emergency:

  1.  Charges for fuel will be reduced by 50%.

  2.  Berthing charges for each day after the first week will be 
  reduced 25%.  Ship crews able to document having provided direct 
  assistance (i.e., have assisted cleanup, construction, or 
  security crews) to emergency forces on Enlid continent will have 
  one day of berthing fees refunded, for each day of such 
  assistance.  Such refund will _not_ be applied to first week 
  fees, however.

  3.  Restrictions on wilderness refueling will be waived, upon 
  payment of a charge (at 50% of standard rates for unrefined fuel) 
  for an amount of fuel equal to full tankage for the vessel being 
  filled.

  4.  Inspection and clearance of inbound non-aid cargoes, and 
  all outbound cargoes, will be expedited to the best of the 
  government's ability.

  Please note that these measures affect only those ships which 
  provide needed assistance in response to the disaster on Enlid 
  continent.  Other ships will be subject to all normal 
  regulations.

  (s) Daevyd Elkanu
  Minister of Planetary Affairs
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.50   ~ If your mind goes blank, remember to turn off the sound.

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5868
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 00:03:50 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steve Bonneville)
Subject: Re: Yacht 15mm not 25mm!


>>For the non-oldtimers, the FASA _Adventure Class_ volumes were boxed sets
>>with five sheets of deckplans at 25mm scale that could be unfolded and
>                                 ^  15mm scale!

Oops!  I must be in a time warp or something...I looked at the box before
I typed that, and I *knew* better, but I *still* typed 25mm...geez....  
Sorry about the goof! 

- --Steve


------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5869
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Zhodani & the Tavrchedl'
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 93 15:33:19 CDT

So ya wanna hear about the Zhos, eh?  The Tavrchedl' in particular,
Ok.

Catie compares them to Judge Dread.

Well, I don't know Judge Dread, however as I understand it he's
basically Judge, Jury and Executioner.  That is NOT the normal
Tavrchedl'.  The usual Tavrchedl' is not some violent nut in battle
dress on a grav bike carrying a fusion gun while his faithful
sidekick merely mans a VRF gauss gun.

No.  As Stewart said, the Zhodani aren't Klingons.

This is not the kind of thing that fits into the normal law
abiding, harmonious society that the Zhodani are famous for.  The
Tavrchedl':  the "Guardians Of Our Morality" are DOCTORS.  They are
treating SICK people.  Sounds boring doesn't it?  Sorry.  That's
another thing the Zhodani society is famous for.  You see, when
society is functioning together like a harmonious whole, you don't
have people out there who would necessitate a Judge Dread.

Oh sure, every once in a while you may need some military muscle to
round up the Branch Dividian Cultists out on the planet Waco.  But
that will be the exception, not the rule.  The Judge Dread bit
MIGHT show up on the unabsorbed worlds in the Consulate, but I've
a feeling that the Zhodani, who are supposedly the Machiavellian
Masters of Humaniti would be much more subtle than that.

[Soap Box Warning]

Lots of people think that the evil "Thought Police" are terrible
Orwellesque oppressors who will be instantly obvious to anyone who
isn't completely blind.  HA!  (excuse me while I laugh heartily at
you)  If the Tavrchedl' were that obvious, well, they would KNOW
they were obvious and correct it wouldn't they?

How obvious are they?

Are there perhaps Tavrchedl' in our society today?  The answer is
yes.  But who are they?  Who are the people who seek to mold us and
shape our `Morality'?  Preachers?  Teachers?  College Professors?
Cops?  Journalists?

Consider the movement of the "Politically Correct".  THIS is my
model for the Tavrchedl'.  After all, are not the goals of the P.C.
people and the Tavrchedl' fairly closely in line?  I would imagine
so.  Discrimination and antipathy must be the crimes which the
ordinary citizens most often come in contact with the Tavrchedl'.
(Actually, I imagine the Tavrchedl' more persuasive than the PCs.
They know how to appeal to people and make their ideas sound
reasonable instead of going off the deep end, thus losing their
audience.)

Catie sites the idea of a Tavrchedl' officer trying to clear up a
problem between someone and their mother in law.  :-)  A good
example for humor, but I think a more typical case would be along
the lines of:

"Well, Mister Radenov, I see that you are having difficulty in your
job:  you lack respect for your supervisor because she is female.
Surely, you recognize that this problem you are having has no basis
in proper thinking.  I think it would be wise if you were to agree
to come along with us so that we may sort out these feelings you
are having..."

Another thought is where the Tavrchedl' get their name:  "Guardians
of OUR Morality".  That's *Zhodani* morality.  Acute difference
there.  Remember, the Zhodani, being mind readers will know all
about the human (and readable alien) psychology.  They will *know*
which thoughts and feelings are "natural".  Because of this, the
`Morality' of the Zhodani will be Quite different from what the
"Honorable" Senator Jesse Helms considers `Morality'.  I think the
Consulate would take extreme views on what the `Moral Majority'
calls itself.

Now, there are quite a few sexual and societal practices which
mainstream culture defines as deviant.  Undoubtedly, the Zhos will
have some very different opinions as to what defines `deviant'.
Especially when they have known the human psyche intimately for the
past 9000 years.  There are a great number of fantasies the human
mind entertains, but does not act upon because of societal
pressures.  When it is a known fact that everyone (or a large
percentage thereof) has such fantasies, the Consulate will define
said thing as `normal'.

For instance, there is a much quoted (albeit highly debated)
estimate on the percentage of homosexuals in our society (10%).  If
we are to believe that this is genetic, one may expect similar
numbers in Zhodani culture.  The Zhos, if they see 10% will
undoubtedly conclude that homosexuality is indeed "natural".  As
such, homophobia will undoubtedly be seen as disease along side
misogyny, misanthropy, etc.

Bestiality (oops sorry) Zoophily will probably be acceptable to the
Zhodani.  <Which may account for the good relations the Zhos have
with the Vargr and the Droyne. |->

(BTW, there are no anonymous mail/news servers in the Consulate :-)

All in all, the Zhodani will be a lot more in touch with their
feelings, and the id of a Consulate Citizen may be indulged a bit
more than that of an Imperial Citizen.  (Making the Zhodani more
along the lines of the historical definition of an IDiot :-)

Racism may be another matter though.  After all, everyone knows
that the Zhodani are the best psionics among Humaniti, (at least
the Zhodani think so) and psionic strength is obviously the way
people are judged in the Consulate.

Now, remember, when a Consulate Citizen sees signs of what THEY
consider DISEASE, they will want to help.  It's rather like the
Imperial Citizen sees a person with scarlet fever.  The Imperial
Citizen (if they care at all) will want to "cure" that person by
sending them to a "Doctor".  Well, the Consulate Citizen has the
same view except the disease isn't fever, it's a phobia...  Or free
floating anxiety...  Or feelings of inadequacy...  Or deep seated
aggression...  Or dissatisfaction with the government...  These are
DISEASES.  And what is perverted about Imperial Society is that
they have *outlawed* the cure for these diseases.  The only way
that Imperial Citizens may "cure" such problems is by blind
techniques like `psychotherapy' which compared to the Zhodani is
like a dug-out log, next to a jump-6 starship.

Yes, the Imperium has declared all the doctors are criminals and
all they have left are medicine men with their rattles, beads and
hollow drums.
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
"Kellogg is just plain nuts!"  -- H. Beam Piper
^Z



------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5870
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 15:08:26 PST
From: helm@geology.ucdavis.edu
Subject: Tavrchedl' vis-a-vis Judge Dread


I can only suppose I did not make myself clear enough.
I made the Judge Dread analogy in terms of the judicial powers
of the Tavrchedl', and in fact attempted to clarify that this
was my metaphorical intent in the very next sentence.  I in no
way was trying to imply that the Tavrchedl' resorted to any kind
of arbitrary violence.  I was merely trying to demonstrate how
powerful the Tavrchedl' had to be, going by the description in
Alien Module 4.

In terms of the Tavrchedl' being judge, jury and "executioner",
it actually demonstrates the undeniable tyranny of Zhodani society
(hence my quip about the Zhodani having no lawyers).  A person
can not appeal the judgement of the Tavrchedl', even if the Tavrchedl'
is wrong (and anyone can be wrong, even the Tavrchedl' - they are
not God).  There is no justice for the common man or woman in Zhodani
society (other than the Tvarchedl'), and there are no checks and
balances on the Tvarchedl' itself that we know of.  Yes, it can be
argued that they are a benevolent despotism, but they are a despotism
nonetheless.

Catie Helm


------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5871
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 21:37:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: LTG3878@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU
Subject: Yacht Deckplans

Someone wanted to know about published deckplans for the Type Y Yacht.
Space Gamer 85 has deckplans for a modified version of the Type Y Yacht.
The tonnage and configuration is the same, the performance has been
modified however.  I suggest you use the basic outline of the ship provided
and fill in the details of the Type Y yourself.

					Lewis Taylor Goss

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5872
Date: 	Wed, 11 Aug 1993 01:42:17 -0230
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@mercury.cs.mun.ca>
Subject: Missiles again...

Hello there:

	Before I open the can of worms that is the missile debate, I may state
that I am only looking for some stats on what the standard MT starship
missiles (Standard HE, Nuclear and Antimatter (hah!!) ) do in the way of
damage points and their penetrations... 

	I avidly read all previous posts on missiles and became hopelessly lost.
There are a lot of pretty knowledgable people out there on the subject,
and I'm afraid I'm not one of them! :)

	In particular, the COACC booklet says that a standard starship missile
has 30 kg of "focussed High explosives". Now, what exactly is 'focussed'
high explosive (Standard, Shaped, TDX??)? I tried working things out on
the Demolition tables and found that missiles should only penetrate (not
using the breach rules) armor values of 50 and below. This right? Hmmm.

	Further, shouldn't a Nuclear Warhead pretty well vaporize a ship on
contact? I mean, going by Digest number 21 in the "Pirates of Tetrini"
scenario, a 5ktn TL 12 warhead does an immense amount of damage in it's ground
zero. So, like, one Nuke one kill. Yeesh! Meanwhile, the damage tables just
make it look like an HE with some radiation...

(Gentle reminder to Gurus: I have never had MT combat actually work before...)

	Anyhow, enough of that. I'd like to thank C. Harald Koch for his donation
of stellar data to me earlier this week. Very Very helpful. For that matter,
thanks to all who have steered me in the right directions. 


	Anthony Neal
	(Perpetually Confused)

------------------------------

Bundle: 486
Archive-Message-Number: 5873
Date: 11 Aug 1993 02:05:39 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Zhodani oppression

I've felt all along that the Zhodani were basically an oppressive
society. Scott's description strikes me as being essentially what
the propagandists used to *claim* the former USSR was like. Of
course the reality was quite different. Comparing them to the cur-
rent 'PC' movement strikes me as very apt, although not in manner
intended since I personally consider the 'PC' movement to be *very*
oppressive, despite their claims. I very much agree with Catie as to
her evaluation of the status of the average citizen. They are very
much subject to the whim of these , supposedly, inerrant individuals.
The fact that the Zhodani society finds the Tavrchedl's activities
to be "moral" is, IMO, simply put, quite relative. The only difference
I see between them & any other despotic government is that they've
"got it right". How do we know this? Well, just ask them! ;*)

Seriously though, I just don't see how this could work w/o resorting
to the usual police-state tactics. Especially when the question of
"converting" (ie: destroying the native culture of) newly acquired worlds 
is considered. The presence of the these Thought
Police seems to me to confirm this. It's always nice to assume that
this society will conform to one's own ideas of what is good & just
but imagine what it would be like if it didn't? I know for sure that 
*I* wouldn't want to live in such a society. I don't need "Big Brother" 
looking over my shoulder, or into my mind!

Phil Pugliese

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


  

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #487: Msgs 5874-5884 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Aug 15 22:00:03 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #487: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 487  5874 11-Aug-1993 James Kundert    Aliens << Loren Wiseman asks the TML:
 487  5875 11-Aug-1993 James Kundert    Zhodani etc. << In response to Catie He
 487  5876 11-Aug-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Tavrchedl' in Zhodani society << Meanwh
 487  5877 12-Aug-1993 Adrian Hurt      Zhodani << PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu wr
   0     0 12-Aug-1993 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Zhodani << ----------------------------
 487  5877 12-Aug-1993 Tony Zbaraschuk  << >From: PRISM::TZBARASC     "Tony Zba
 487  5878 13-Aug-1993 ihlpl!zonker@at  Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5876-5877 V59#17 
 487  5879 13-Aug-1993 John H Bogan     At the risk being PC... << I hate to wa
 487  5880 14-Aug-1993 rancke@diku.dk   Those perfidious (?) Zhodani << Phil sa
 487  5881 14-Aug-1993 j.kundert@genie  Zhodani Tavrchedl' << Hmmm...
 487  5882 13-Aug-1993 helm@geology.uc  Zhodani and Spinward <<  Why did the Zh
 487  5883 14-Aug-1993 pihlab@cbr.hhcs  GDW and the future << Let me start off 
 487  5884 14-Aug-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     Zhodani and the Thought Police... << ..

------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5874
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 12:54:47 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Aliens

Loren Wiseman asks the TML:
 < Anybody have any suggestions as to how we should present the alien
races, and in what order?>

  Since career tables no longer take up two pages minimum by
definition, you could theoretically fit three or four races in a book
the size of the MT rulebooks (100 pages or so), and still give
them coverage equal to the Classic Traveller Alien Modules. If you
do Aliens to the old Contact! article length, such a book could
hold a dozen or more races.  What I would like to see is a combination
of the two ideas.  For example:

 Races of the Reformation Coalition, Vol 1
  Hivers (major race writeup)
  Ithklur (Contact)
  Geonee (Contact)
  Stalkers (Contact)
  Dolphins (Contact)
  several other shorts

 Races of the Spinward States, Vol 1
  Zhodani and/or Vargr (major race writeup; the other is in Vol 2)
  Addaxur (Contact)
  Darrians (length?)
  Sword Worlders (Contact)
  Llellewyloly (Contact; I'm already working on this one, BTW)
  etc.

 Races of the Heirate
  Aslan (Major race writeup)
  Ormine (Contact)
  the race of plants from Challenge
  etc.


  Mix in Minor Human Races to taste and length.  The idea is to
minimize reprinted material in each book.  Each of the Major Races
has loads of material, some of it printed twice already.  By putting
only one major race in each book, but filling out the book with
local minor races (some of which would be brand new, some so old
only us black box Traveller players remember them), the MT complaints
about "having to buy it all over again" are spread much thinner.
By adding new material to the reprinted stuff (or replacing it
entirely; not easy) the complaints are reduced even more.  By
providing "how to play" tips and TNE careers for the various minor
races, each book does volumes for the "feel" of Traveller.

  The order of presentation only matters in one instance.  The Hivers
are very important to RCES play, and the only material on them is
years old.  For importance to their setting, no other race comes
close (the Aslan, Vargr, and Zhodani are all in a tie for second, IMO).
The minor races for each setting range from "local color" to "PC"
depending on the individual campaign and the race (not all are suited
to PC play), but are important for all that.

  Lastly, one race, the Chirpers, need their own section seperate from
the Droyne entry.  Each Chirper colony is different from all others and
different from the Droyne.  They deserve their own section.

 Later,

James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5875
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 12:55:36 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Zhodani etc.

In response to Catie Helm's post on Zhodani, some thoughts of my own:

  The Tavrchedl' (TAH-ver-Chedd-ul) certainly come off as almost superhuman
in their ideals, but no such organization can stay at such levels for
long, and in such large numbers.  I see the community monitors as a
type of "beat cop", who must balance public well-being with the local
resources of their organization.  Sometimes there can be no balance, and
a society tips over into chaos (in Zhodani terms, anyway).
  Where does this idea come from?  The old Zhodani module contains rules
for generating Consular space, and a classification similar to the
TAS Amber Zone:  Unabsorbed.  This classification is based on Port
type (C, D, E) and a die roll (11+).  This applies anywhere in Zhodani
space, regardless of proximity to Zhdant.  This tells me that, despite
6600 years of Jump Drive and an uninterupted span of government and
culture, the Zhodani still have problems they cannot solve, despite
continued attempts (The "Unabsorbed" classification implies that the
Tavrchedl' are in place and working towards cultural unity).

  Once you get under the psionic layers of insulation, the average
citizen of the Consulate is nearly identical to the average Imperial
citizen.  There are two main differences:  A Consulate Prole has
no self-oriented goals which include social climbing.  These are all
oriented on his children, instead.  In addition, all proles have that
wonderful feeling of security that a good medical insurance plan gives
you today.  This feeling comes from knowing that the "Guardians of Our
Morality," the Tavrchedl', are watching.

  Another role I tend to assign to the Tavrchedl' is that of facilitator.
The Guardians' role is that of "keeping the proles happy".  The printed
material tells us that this involves "adjusting" an unhappy
individual until he is happy again.  This normally involves psionic
or psychological methods.  I prefer to extend this to other forms
of adjustment as well.  If a prole is not happy in his current
circumstances, despite attempts to make him so, the Tavrchedl' will
determine where he is best suited to be, and make sure he gets there.
SORAG has obtained quite a few crack operatives through this method over
the centuries, as have the Guard and the Core Expeditions.
  This is not to say that such changes of career cannot be done alone,
just that those who want such a change, but don't know it, can count
on the Tavrchedl' for help.

  With the New Era, and growing social contact between the Consulate
and the Regency, encounters such as Catie describes will be more
common, but not too common.  The attitude taken by the Zhodani in
the example is typical only of the more people-oriented nobility,
and the civilian Tavrchedl' (The old Zhodani module didn't give
Proles the Psychology skill).  And any Zhodani who made such an offer
without having met (and scanned) the mother-in-law in question, is
asking for a diplomatic incident.

  I usually interpret the Zhodani glottal stop as a "hard pause".
Words that end with it do not blend into the following word, but
have a very distinct stop.  Words with a stop in the middle will
tend to sound like two words.


 Catie says:
 <I have noticed that the whole "hard times" flavor of the
rebellion gets editted out of our scenarios, though, and I think this is
an implicit decision on the part of the Ref and players.  Playing in
Spinward probably helps buffer the whole "hard times" schtick.>

  Before I say more, I should state that I am one of the players in
the 1118 game that Catie mentioned.  As this is not a Hard Times era
game, I cannot comment on this part of Catie's post.  I ran a Hard
Times game briefly last year, however, and found no shortage of ways
to make the era clear during play.  The game was placed in Welling
Subsector (Lishun N), and was much more in the heart of Hard Times.
The Marches never felt the Times, and are thus a poor place for a
"Hard Times" campaign.

 Catie says:
 <I've not noticed that we have problems bringing new players into our
traveller games, even with the vast onus of traveller history and material
that's out there.>

  In the case of the 1118 campaign, this is due to having lots of 
open-minded gamers for friends, and because the group is a melding
of two older Traveller groups.  Recruiting brand new players is not
nearly so simple.  Hopefully TNE will change this.

 Catie opines:
 <I suspect, however, that the quality of the games has had a lot to do
with the quality of the refs.  I have come to the opinion that the
"traveller flavor" of the games, regardless of time-period or rules set,
has far more to do with having a good ref than it does with the imperial
date or the specific rules used.>

  In the current role-playing environment, you dare not ignore your
players.  A good referee can start a "Traveller Flavor" game, but it
takes good players to finish it (or any flavor of game).


 On GDW, Catie says:
 <This time last year, I was feeling quite discouraged by what seemed
to be a general lack of interest and/or antipathy on the part of GDW
in what TML participants thought.>

  Lest we forget, GDW seemed to be ignoring _everybody_, not just the
TML.  Last summer was the hectic time surrounding the release of
Dangerous Journeys.  Whatever you think about that game (I DON'T want
to hear about it here, thank you) it tied up GDW's resources and
attention completely during that time (as TNE is doing now).

  'Nuff said

James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5876
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Tavrchedl' in Zhodani society
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 21:10:07 CDT

Meanwhile, Back in the Consulate...

Speaking strictly from the Zhodani point of view:
You know, I think we're looking at this in the wrong light.  We are
trying to compare the Tavrchedl' to a legal system (of sorts even
in Judge Dread).  These are not `Beat Cops'.  However, the
Tavrchedl' are *not* a LEGAL system at all.  Analogies to any sort
of legal system are right out.

Catie says that under the Zhodani system there are no judges, no
juries, no lawyers, no trials, and no appeals.  This is true.
However, since we are not discussing a legal system, these ideas
just don't apply here.

The periodic examinations of the people and the roving patrols of
the Tavrchedl' which locate the afflicted are not `Police'.  They
are Emergency Medical Technicians and Ambulance Riders.  This is a
MEDICAL system.  The Re-education centers are not prisons, they are
*Hospitals*.

If you want a court of appeals or a lawyer, to prevent the "Judge,
Jury, Executioner" syndrome, then I must point out that Hospitals
rarely have only one doctor.  The Tavrchedl' who makes the `arrest'
will probably not be the one who administers treatment.  Thus,
there will be an almost automatic `appeal' as a second opinion will
be called into question.

PS.  I never said that the Politically Correct movement was Not
oppressive.  I just said that it was similar to the Tavrchedl'.
I don't like the idea of P.C. Nazis reading my mind either.  :-P
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
"Kellogg is just plain nuts!"  -- H. Beam Piper


------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5877
From: adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Zhodani
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 93 9:12:34 WET DST

PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu writes:
> 
>					It's always nice to assume that
> this society will conform to one's own ideas of what is good & just
> but imagine what it would be like if it didn't? I know for sure that 
> *I* wouldn't want to live in such a society. I don't need "Big Brother" 
> looking over my shoulder, or into my mind!

Most Imperial citizens feel the same way, which is why there have been
five Frontier Wars! ;-)

Which reminds me of another gripe I have about the MT/TNE background.
Apparently Deneb is safe from Zhodani invasion because the Zhodani no
longer consider them a threat.  Now, maybe I've got my history wrong,
but I thought there had been five Frontier Wars and the Zhodani started
all five of them.  Who's threatening whom?  Besides, if I were Supreme
Zhodani, or whatever title is used, I'd consider the fact that some time
in the future the Imperium is bound to re-form, and remove the "threat"
from Deneb while it is easy to do so.

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cee
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1993 19:15:21 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Zhodani


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5876
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Tavrchedl' in Zhodani society
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 21:10:07 CDT

Meanwhile, Back in the Consulate...

Speaking strictly from the Zhodani point of view:
You know, I think we're looking at this in the wrong light.  We are
trying to compare the Tavrchedl' to a legal system (of sorts even
in Judge Dread).  These are not `Beat Cops'.  However, the
Tavrchedl' are *not* a LEGAL system at all.  Analogies to any sort
of legal system are right out.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well it *seems* to that it takes the place of a legal system &
so that's why I compare it as such. (This is similar, IMO, to
the old trekkie controversy about whether or not Starfleet is
or isn't a "military organisation".

Phil
===============================================================

(Scott says)

Catie says that under the Zhodani system there are no judges, no
juries, no lawyers, no trials, and no appeals.  This is true.
However, since we are not discussing a legal system, these ideas
just don't apply here.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well I'm sorry but I must disagree. They can consider themselves
anything they wish. I still reserve the right to classify them
as I feel appropriate & evaluate them accordingly. Calling them
med-techs instead of cops doesn't change much, IMO, about what
their real function is.

Phil
=================================================================

(Scott says)

The periodic examinations of the people and the roving patrols of
the Tavrchedl' which locate the afflicted are not `Police'.  They
are Emergency Medical Technicians and Ambulance Riders.  This is a
MEDICAL system.  The Re-education centers are not prisons, they are
*Hospitals*.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well the former USSR had a system that was strikingly similar. If 
you got out of line you could be labelled  "sick" & sent for "treatment". 
It wasn't an experience I would recommend.

Phil
====================================================================

(Scott says)

If you want a court of appeals or a lawyer, to prevent the "Judge,
Jury, Executioner" syndrome, then I must point out that Hospitals
rarely have only one doctor.  The Tavrchedl' who makes the `arrest'
will probably not be the one who administers treatment.  Thus,
there will be an almost automatic `appeal' as a second opinion will
be called into question.

Scott 2G Kellogg
"Kellogg is just plain nuts!"  -- H. Beam Piper
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Once again similarities to the former USSR's psych. hospitals abounds.

In sum I feel that the potential for abuse in this sort of system
is enormous. I have always been surprised the GDW itself always
maintained that the Zhodani were really quite benevolent when
they seemed to take such pains setting their society up as a car-
bon-copy of the USSR. Especially now that so much more info is avail.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree?

Phil Pugliese
ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
=====================================================================

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
(M. Scott says)

Which reminds me of another gripe I have about the MT/TNE background.
Apparently Deneb is safe from Zhodani invasion because the Zhodani no
longer consider them a threat.  Now, maybe I've got my history wrong,
but I thought there had been five Frontier Wars and the Zhodani started
all five of them.  Who's threatening whom?  Besides, if I were Supreme
Zhodani, or whatever title is used, I'd consider the fact that some time
in the future the Imperium is bound to re-form, and remove the "threat"
from Deneb while it is easy to do so.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

GDW has *always* been very solicitious towards the Zhodani. Almost
apologetic. The Imperium, especially after the Civil Wars, was never
any real threat to Zhodane, except that it showed that another form
of human society could be successful. Once again the allegory to the
former USSR is apparent. It was the Imperium's fault for "provoking"
them. My opinion is that the Zhodani attacked because it's the nature
of such forms of gov. to do so. Nothing is perceived as a greater threat
than an alternative form of gov. Especially one that ,like the Imperium,
tolerated a diversity of cultures instead of imposing the "One True Faith"
(tm), or ,at least, attempting to do so.  In effect it was the mere exis-
tance of the Imperium that threatened them. Now, or so the theory goes, 
that there is no Imperium, the threat is gone. I think a far more likely 
responce would be that the Zhodani would, at the very least, "Finlandize"
the Regency. I didn't like much about MT but I think the idea that the
Zhodani Core Expeditions had stirred up so many problems for them that
they didn't have any effort to spare was alot more plausible than the
TNE 'line'. Too bad there wasn't enough time to develop it. Just another 
of the casualties of the "New Order", I guess.

Phil Pugliese

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5877
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 93 22:03:09 EST
From: Tony Zbaraschuk <TZBARASC@ucs.indiana.edu>

>From:	PRISM::TZBARASC     "Tony Zbaraschuk" 12-AUG-1993 22:02:06.53
To:	PO1::"traveller@engr.uwo.ca"
CC:	TZBARASC
Subj:	Zhodani: Wars and Thought Police

I've been trying to figure out the Frontier Wars myself, and they don't make
a whole lot of sense.  What do the Zhodani hope to gain?  Telling the
Imperium "back off or else" doesn't really cut it, IMO.  Surely they could
work it out in some other way?  
They can't hope to defeat the (larger, more advanced) Imperium, not even by
taking the entire Spinward Marches (this "thrust at Rhylanor" bit is a little
wacko) given Imperial reinforcement and industrial capability, and technical
advantages.  Hence they must have some limited objectives, which are -- what?

(Primarily I'm talking about the Fifth Frontier War; there's not enough 
evidence for me to speculate about the others.  The Second (strike while the
Imperium convulses in civil war) makes the most sense to me, but not the
first -- and with the Sword Worlds as allies?  A single Imperial battle
squadron will rip their fleets to shreds -- TL11-12 vs TL15!)).  What were
the Zhodani trying to do in the Fifth Frontier War???

As for why they don't attack again -- well, my guess is that they're simply
not capable of absorbing the trillion+ Imperials in the Spinward Marches; it
would be far too difficult to assimilate and re-educate all of them.


Getting back to the Thought Police -- hmmm... Think Deanna Troi with a lot of
reinforcement back-up.  ("You NEED help.  We/I WILL give it to you.")
I'm still trying to figure out how you combine a conformist society with
ambition, but maybe I just can't figure out the Zhodani.

Oh well, enough for now.


Tony Zbaraschuk

------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5878
From: ihlpl!zonker@att.uucp
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 5876-5877 V59#17 Zhodani
Date: 	Fri, 13 Aug 1993 08:22:13 -0600

>Apparently Deneb is safe from Zhodani invasion because the Zhodani no
>longer consider them a threat.  Now, maybe I've got my history wrong,
>but I thought there had been five Frontier Wars and the Zhodani started
>all five of them.  Who's threatening whom?

Did the Zhodani start all five of them?  Looks like a clear case to me of
us only getting one side of the story.  This could well be a situation
much like WWII in the Pacific where the Japanese were forced to act or
become helpless (n.b. the U.S., U.K., and Dutch oil embargo was causing
exhaustion of Japan's oil reserve and the Japanese either needed to act or
do what they were told since once the reserve was gone Japan could not
have waged war).  Perhaps there were numerous aggesive raids (not reported
by the TNS inside the Imperium) on Zhodani territory that forced the
Zhodani to finally act to supress them.  These were then trumped up to a
start a War.  With the Imperial population's views on Psi it wouldn't be
hard to take even minor acts by individual Zhodani or blunders by
Imperial officers (explained as Zhodani intervention) and turn them into a
war.
				Tom Harris

------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5879
From: John H Bogan <jbogan@libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu>
Subject: At the risk being PC...
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 93 12:25:18 EDT

I hate to waste more time on the TML with this PC business,
so I'll keep it brief.


I can't speak for you guys, but in my neck of the woods, the
"PC oppressiveness" problem doesn't come from the "euphamism-
of-th-week" bunch but from the hard consrvative types who
label anything to the left of themselves as PC and generally
use the word as a verbal bludgeon.

There's more "correctness" out there than just the "PC" variety.



Anyway, back to Traveller:

Allegedly the Zho's started the Fronteir Wars as sort of
preemptive strikes, to keep the Impies at a safe distance.

As for why they didn't go after DoD, find one and think at him...


John H Bogan


------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5880
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Those perfidious (?) Zhodani
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1993 03:58:36 +0100 (METDST)

Phil says:
>(Scott says)
> 
>The periodic examinations of the people and the roving patrols of
>the Tavrchedl' which locate the afflicted are not `Police'.  They
>are Emergency Medical Technicians and Ambulance Riders.  This is a
>MEDICAL system.  The Re-education centers are not prisons, they are
>*Hospitals*.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Well the former USSR had a system that was strikingly similar. If 
>you got out of line you could be labelled  "sick" & sent for "treatment". 
>It wasn't an experience I would recommend.
> 
>(Scott says)
> 
>If you want a court of appeals or a lawyer, to prevent the "Judge,
>Jury, Executioner" syndrome, then I must point out that Hospitals
>rarely have only one doctor.  The Tavrchedl' who makes the `arrest'
>will probably not be the one who administers treatment.  Thus,
>there will be an almost automatic `appeal' as a second opinion will
>be called into question.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Once again similarities to the former USSR's psych. hospitals abounds.
> 
>In sum I feel that the potential for abuse in this sort of system
>is enormous. I have always been surprised the GDW itself always
>maintained that the Zhodani were really quite benevolent when
>they seemed to take such pains setting their society up as a car-
>bon-copy of the USSR. Especially now that so much more info is avail.

You seem to be missing the interesting point about the Zhodani by a large
margin. They are not (necessarily) a carbon copy of the USSR because,
thanks to their psionic abilities, they really may be so benevolent.
Remember, both Heaven and Hell are dictatorships. The reason why
dictatorships tend to be iffy propositions on Earth is that its difficult
to find a dictator with the right attitude. It's even worse finding a
good successor. But with mind reading you can _know_ if the man you
select has what it takes. 

Wether the Zhodani's have actually used their abilities to set up a
self-regulating machinery to keep the Tavrchedl' honest is up to the
individual Referee, because the noise they would make would be the
same in any case. But the beauty of the situation is that if the 
set-up is good then it will most propably stay good (and if it's bad
it'll stay bad, of course).

>GDW has *always* been very solicitious towards the Zhodani. Almost
>apologetic. The Imperium, especially after the Civil Wars, was never
>any real threat to Zhodane, except that it showed that another form
>of human society could be successful. Once again the allegory to the
>former USSR is apparent. It was the Imperium's fault for "provoking"
>them. My opinion is that the Zhodani attacked because it's the nature
>of such forms of gov. to do so. Nothing is perceived as a greater threat
>than an alternative form of gov. Especially one that ,like the Imperium,
>tolerated a diversity of cultures instead of imposing the "One True Faith"
>(tm), or ,at least, attempting to do so.  

What was percieved as a threat was that the Imperium started pushing into
Foreven Sector a few hundred years after arriving in the Spinward Marches
while the Zhodani had spent a millenium trying to digest what they had
already spread over. They foresaw that when they again wanted to expand,
the Imperium would've grown to surround them.

(And the Zhodani still haven't integrated everybody in their area even 
two millenia. It's my belief that they must have some major troubles with
unreconstructed planets).



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5881
From: j.kundert@genie.geis.com
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 93 03:37:00 BST
Subject: Zhodani Tavrchedl'

Hmmm...
Scott 2G Kellogg says (in msg 5876):
 <These are not `Beat Cops'.  However, the Tavrchedl' are *not* a
LEGAL system at all.  Analogies to any sort of legal system are right
out.>
  You missed my (probably obscure) point.  The Tavrchedl' OPERATE a
bit like beat cops.  They get out and walk (or drive) the
neighborhoods, mentally looking for "trouble".  To borrow from your post,
they are a prowling ambulance crew, hunting for people to save.
  They must do this to some extent, since sitting at the Morality Ward
in the center of town and scanning everyone will not produce very
accurate results ("I've got a five person headache.  Two in that
direction, three over there."). While such a system is good for a start,
you will need the street crews to pinpoint the troubled folks ANYWAY,
so why not make them standard.
 
 <Catie says that under the Zhodani system there are no judges, no
juries, no lawyers, no trials, and no appeals.  This is true.>
  Actually, its not.  When it comes to LEGAL questions, any telepathic
Noble can (and usually will) function as Judge and Jury.  Trials
(supposedly) discover the truth of a legal matter, but a telepath
can do this for himself.  The only appeals in Zhodani society are
for "grey crimes", which have no clear method of resolution.  In these
cases you may get several Nobility (how ever many are available)
putting their heads together and producing a common solution.
  This primarily deals with Proles however.  But we were talking about
medical matters, not legal ones...
 
 <The Re-education centers are not prisons, they are *Hospitals*.>
  Thus my point about "really good medical insurance".
 
 <...I must point out that Hospitals rarely have only one doctor.>
  Quite true.  There will also be a greater sense of cooperation between
therapy teams than we find these days.  Among other reasons, the
Tavrchedl' don't have "the BILL" hanging over their heads as an excuse
to not cooperate.  They help the people, and their salaries are
guaranteed (and probably high; talk about a stress job).
 
  As far as what is considered "Normal" is Zhodani society, I notice
that Brawling skill is quite common on the Prole charts (in the old
Zho Module).  I suspect that a little drunken pugilism is good for
the soul, and the Guardians know it.
 
Adrian Hurt says (in msg 5877):
 <Now, maybe I've got my history wrong,
but I thought there had been five Frontier Wars and the Zhodani started
all five of them.  Who's threatening whom?  Besides, if I were Supreme
Zhodani, or whatever title is used, I'd consider the fact that some time
in the future the Imperium is bound to re-form, and remove the "threat"
from Deneb while it is easy to do so.>
  The Imperium has never gotten very far on armed conquest.  Imperials
prefer to settle an area beyond the border then move the border.  The
Frontier Wars were the Zhodani way of controlling this urge among the
Imperials.  Each Frontier War stated in subconcious terms: "We will
not let the Imperium surround us, so it had best not try."  Taken at
the conscious level, this message is not really apparent, producing
a queasy sense of curiousity and paranoia among the Denebian leadership:
"Why aren't they attacking us? We are weak."  The Zhodani answer is:
"If you are weak, you will not expand.  We do not need to remind you
of our resolve if you do not have the resources to test it."
 
 And so it goes...
 
 James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
 
 There was a young lady named Bright,
 Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
 She departed one day in a relative way,
 And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold
 
 

------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5882
From: helm@geology.ucdavis.edu
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 93 22:00:57 PDT
Subject: Zhodani and Spinward

	Why did the Zhodani change their tune and start making peaceful
overtures to the Domain of Deneb after the Fifth Frontier Was?  Jim
Kelleher and I figured the reasons were economic.  Consider the outlay
of attempting a full scale invasion, and then the impact of losing.
Our conclusion is that the failure of the Fifth Frontier War caused
an economic "recession" for the Zhos, to the point where they can't 
afford another altercation for a while.
	I always thought that at least the First and Second Frontier 
Wars were really over territory, from the impression I get while reading 
about it in Alien Module 4.
	To quote Milne's Tigger, ttfn!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catie Helm
Stable Isotope Lab, University of California, Davis
helm@geology.ucdavis.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5883
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1993 16:40:12 +1000
From: pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: GDW and the future


Let me start off with a few questions to GDW.

1.  Do you have the future history of TNE universe mapped out for the next
    50-200 years?  eg are you running a REAL game now played at the 
    political/military level that encompasses all the major players in the
    TNE universe and that is creating the future TNE history or are you just
    making it up as you go.

2.  Do you have specific psychological models for the currently unpublished
    alien societies?  ie how individuals in the societies behave to each other
    and to outsiders; how the government and traders relate to external
    groups, empires, consortiums, etc.

3.  Have you justified logicly to youselves the various social and military
    interactions of the various alien societies in your universe.  Why 5 wars
    with the Zhodani and now suddenly peace?  Why hasn't the Imperium trashed
    the SWORD WORLDS and gotten rid of that annoying group.  

4.  Are we (the GMs and players of TNE) being treated as if we were simply
    moving through a planned TNE timeline and we're only being fed information
    like "this is the news today" and that's really all we should know.  If this
    is the case then give us some more news!

5.  Are there groups around the world who are privy to the details of the
    TNE future history and possibly helping to design it.

6.  What's on the otherside of the empires surrounding the Imperium?  Have you
    mapped these regions out?  In great detail or just 'other empire' borders
    or is it unplayable so it's treated as not being there?

7.  While I'm not keen on rolling lots of dice in combat I find the armour
    penetration rules a bit too black and white.  Oh you've got that gun and 
    I've got this armour so you can't hurt me.  In a lot of cases I would like
    to do away with the straight subtraction of damage dice and simply roll
    them all and have the defender roll what dice would have been subtracted
    and then subtract the two sums.  There are cases where you will inflict
    damage where previously it was impossible.  How do you feel about this
    variation?

8.  I find it very difficult to get exceptional successes with most average 
    characters unless they are 'super' at a skill and the 10 point range is
    a very large single step.  Have you looked at 5 point steps with 5-9
    giving a 1 point defenders armour reduction, 10-14 giving the 5-9 bonus
    plus double damage, 15-19 giving the double damage bonus plus a 2 point 
    reduction in the defenders armour rating?

9.  The fact that TNE combat does very little damage can mean that combats
    run on for long periods.  In the case of the head and chest rule
    of saving throws for death by NPCs it goes to the other extreme with
    one shot kills for NPCs but players dragging on until all their blood
    has drained away.  There must be some middle ground where realism can
    at least share the lime light with playability.  What combat mods are
    people implementing along these lines?

10. We converted our characters to TNE and found the 'feel' of the game to
    have been totally changed.  Preferred weapons now don't penetrate and
    don't have anywhere near the knock down ability they had before.  To
    fix the laser weapon fall from grace our GM simply added "1-" to them
    and the universe has shifted part way back again.  There seems to be a
    number of misprints in the weapons tables  .... do you have an errata
    for them yet?

11. The move to T:2000 in-house game system is a good rationalisation for
    GDW but I feel that the equipment stats for HIGHER TECH equipment
    has been fudged rather badly.  Sure, if I have a TL-10 pistol and
    we upgrade it to TL-12 we don't JUST want a copy made.  What you need
    is a branching of capabilities not a straight line "this is now this".
    The TL-12 pistol would have several variants.  One identical to the
    original for direct sale to TL-10 worlds at cheaper than TL-10 can
    produce it, one with better range but with less penetration, one with 
    better penetration but with less range, one with better penetration at
    close range but worse penetration at longer ranges but still has the
    longer range ability.  There doesn't appear to be enough variation
    for players to role play around ... "Damn he's just out of range, should
    have bought the other model gun" OR "I always carry two pistols, one
    for close in people stopping and one for long range".  Do you have plans 
    for some trade manuals so we can "go shopping"?  It would be nice to front
    up at a shop and have the GM say "Some binoculars?  Oh well if you look on
    page 24 you find variants 1-5 and 11 which are available over the
    counter and he can order in variants 19-24 in 2 weeks or a 25 will take
    a month.  What would you like?".  Look around today, want to buy a TV; how
    many variants can you get?  Some variety please.

 
Just some thoughts...


How about the rest of the TMLers ... comments please.


Bruce...        pihlab@hhcs.gov.au


------------------------------

Bundle: 487
Archive-Message-Number: 5884
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 93 00:08:35 -0700
From: dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov (nosnhoJ enaD)
Subject: Zhodani and the Thought Police...


 ...Well, to throw my Cr0.02 into the fray:  I think that, clearly, the
Taverchedl' are *not* a police force in organization or perceived function.

According to the Zhodani alien book, your typical Zhodani-on-the-street
considers the Taverchedl' to be analogous to Firemen, not policemen...
Personally, I think that the medical analogy is somewhat more apt...At
any rate, they exist not to enforce laws or hunt down criminals, but to
keep people interacting with one another in an harmonious fashion.  What
exactly defines 'harmonious' is, of course, where the potential for
Draconian Thought Police enters into the picture :).  However, on the
whole, the picture presented to us by the Alien module is one of
*alienness*, not *evilness*.

The Zhodani have a system which protects the mental well being of its
citizens in a manner unlike any possible in a society of nontelepaths.
They also conduct mental engineering on a large scale, examining,
telepathically, most, if not all, of their populace and placing them
carefully into society where they fit the best.  The Taverchedl' "keep
the pulse" and make sure that none of the "parts" are getting worn, and
if they are they conduct maintanence and, if necessary, put the part
somewhere that it fits better.

I think GDW's attitude about the Zhodani is pretty easily explained:
the above system, although ripe for misuse, is not inherently bad.  It's
possible that it could exist and the exact right mix of people could be
involved so that it *wasn't* an oppressive system.  It's alien and shaky
to us, but it's not necessarily going to be evil and tyrranical.
<Shrug>  The "unabsorbed" worlds may also be interpreted as those which
haven't *voluntarily* accepted the Zhodani way.  After all, it wouldn't
be nice to force it on people if they didn't want it.  The Zhodani are
many things, but I've never seen them as being especially preachy
<shrug>.

On the topic of the Interstellar Wars:  I've always thought they were a
sort of big Psychohistorical Experiment used to keep the Imperium from
overrunning them.  By carefully selecting where and when they struck
they were able to build up a particular sort of detent <sp?> which
didn't really destabilize either the Imperium or the Zhos...<Speaking of
Psychohistory, I think the Rebellion was the result of Hiver
manipulation...After all, they're obviously trying to re-engineer things
more to their liking with the RCES, eh?>

Dane

traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #488: Msgs 5885-5895 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Aug 18 22:00:03 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #488: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 488  5885 13-Aug-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     Traveller Deckplans <<   I'm starting t
 488  5886 14-Aug-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Tavrchedl' in Role Playing << Howdy,
 488  5887 14-Aug-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Excerpt:  The 4.5th Frontier War << Gre
 488  5888 15-Aug-1993 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Zhodani society << Well there's been so
 488  5889 15-Aug-1993 Kelly St.Clair   TNE - Library Data I'd Like to See << S
 488  5890 16-Aug-1993 Anthony Neal     Equipment and alternatives << Hello all
 488  5891 16-Aug-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     Even More Zhodani... <<  PPUGLIESE@pima
 488  5892 16-Aug-1993 John H Bogan     TML and axes << Phil,
 488  5893 16-Aug-1993 Joe Heck         Some new files in the archive << I plac
 488  5894 17-Aug-1993 "ER........"     Lo-tech moon shot << I asked this once 
 488  5895 17-Aug-1993 rancke@diku.dk   Zhodani perfidy << Phil:

------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5885
Subject: Traveller Deckplans
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 93 19:23:00 -0500

  I'm starting to get back into Traveller/MegaTraveller/Traveller:
  The New Era, and I decided that I need to get a good set of ship
  plans.  I've purchased MegaSets 1 and 2 from Seeker, and I have a
  couple of duplicates.  I'm looking for ship plans, from whatever
  source, for ships whose plans I don't have.  Originals or easily
  readable copies are fine; I'm willing to trade copies of what I
  have, or the duplicates.

  In the list below, names in parens indicate the source of the
  plans.  The notation [C] indicates that the originals are in
  multiple colors.  * before the name means that I have duplicate
  copies of this ship, and am willing to trade the originals.

  If you're interested, make me an offer by _private_mail_.  State
  what you're offering, and what you're interested in.  I won't let
  the duplicate originals go for less than three ships that I don't
  already have.

  Terms of trades:  If I accept your offer, send me your plans, and
  a self-addressed 9inch x 12 inch envelope (not stamped; you pay
  postage to me, I'll pay it to you).  I'll send back the copies of
  the plans we agreed on, or the originals for the duplicates if
  that was the agreement.  I'll acknowledge receipt via email, and
  let you know when I've place your copies into the mail.

  What I have to trade:

  Garu Class Far Trader                          (Flaming Eye)[C]
    "    "    "    "                             (Megatraveller Journal 4)
  Azhanti High Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser  (Arrival Vengeance)[C]
  Donosev Class Scout Survey Ship                (World Builder's Handbook)
  Eakhau Class Aslan Trader (Far trader equiv)   (Solomani & Aslan)
  Beowulf Class Free Trader                      (Starship Operator's Manual)
  System Defense Boat/Jump Shuttle               (MegaSet 2)
 *Subsidized Merchant                            (MegaSet 2)
 *Lab Ship                                       (MegaSet 1, 2)
  Modular Cutter/GCarrier/Fast Shuttle/Launch/
                Pinnace/Pressurized Air Raft     (MegaSet 2)
  Empress Marava Class Far Trader                (MegaSet 1)
  Gazelle Class Close Escort/Gig                 (MegaSet 1)
  Cutter/Ship's Boat/Launch/Pinnace/Fast Shuttle (MegaSet 1)
  Adm Bertil/Vigilante Class Mercenary Cruiser   (Assignment: Vigilante)[C]

  Notes:

  The ships whose sources are MegaSet 1 or 2 are in 25mm scale;
  others are in other scales, not the same, and not suitable for
  miniatures.

  Names separated by slashes (/) are discrete ships that appear in
  the same plans.  They travel as a set; I'm not willing to sort
  through and copy only some of the sheets.

  The Beowulf and Gimu Far Traders are interchangeable.  There may
  be some minor differences (I didn't spot any obvious ones; I also
  didn't do a detailed inspection).

  The Vigilante can be used as a Subsidized Liner; if you're
  interested, I'll include my notes on the immediately obvious
  differences.

  I'm _primarily_ interested in non-military ships; my campaigns
  don't generally involve formal military action.  Non-Imperial
  ships are also highly desirable.  Don't take this to mean that I
  won't consider Imperial or military ships; I will.  You just
  won't see me as flexible in my offers for Imperial and military
  ships.

  If you've done up your own plans for _any_ type of ship,
  _neatly_, and on graph paper (no smaller than 6mm scale), I'm
  willing to consider them.

  I'll post updates to this list as needed; anything I receive will
  be considered available for trades.  I also haven't gone through
  _all_ my Traveller stuff; I may come across additional plans.  I
  doubt it, though; most of what I haven't gone through is Classic
  Traveller stuff and Challenge Magazines.

  Please don't try to foist off your own slightly modified copies
  of standard ships in my list; I _will_ check against what I have,
  and if you've simply "redecorated" a standard, you'll have wasted
  postage to me.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.50   ~ (1.0.1) GCS d++ -p+ c+ l e+ m s/+ !n h+ f g+ w+ t(+) r y?

------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5886
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Tavrchedl' in Role Playing
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 93 16:09:51 CDT

Howdy,

Seems Phil took exception to what I wrote about the Zhodani
Tavrchedl' being a medical organization rather than a police force.
Well, son, you will have to admit that the first words out of my
terminal were:

}Speaking strictly from the Zhodani point of view:

I was doing just that, you see.

The Zhodani do not see the Tavrchedl' as a police force.  They seem
them as a MEDICAL organization.  I was writing to tell you how the
Zhodani view themselves.  Which is, of course, how one should
*Role Play* them.  And that is what this GAME is about.

That the organization might lead to abuse as similar systems did in
the F-USSR has no bearing on how the Zhodani view it.  I personally
doubt that it would collapse given the differences there are
between Russian and Zhodani cultures.

How the organization is viewed by the Imperium is so well known I
don't even have to bother writing about the `Evil Empire's Thought
Police' (tm).  What would be the point?  I'd guess 99% of the
people here have either read 1984 or know enough about it to be
completely bored by the mention of it.

The Challenge we have here is to describe the organization of the
Tavrchedl' in such a way that it fits with the ideas we know of the
Zhodani culture.  If the Zhodani viewed their own Tavrchedl' as
evil thought police, their society would not have lasted 9000 years
without revolution!
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
"Kellogg is just plain nuts!"  -- H. Beam Piper



------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5887
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Excerpt:  The 4.5th Frontier War
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 93 16:10:27 CDT

Greetings y'all,

All the talk on the Zhodani reasons for war made me dig up the
4.5th Frontier War.  I haven't worked on it in a while, but I
thought you wouldn't mind a preview of the next chapter.  The
following is from what amounts to one of the story's philosophical
climaxes.

As those who have read before know, our hero (one of them) Dr. Mako
Malenkoviepr a Zhodani noble was captured and is being interrogated
by some powerful psionics.  Well, he finally does get to meet up
with his captor, Colonel Baremkatalasche' the ex-head of SORAG.
Which is the Zhodani Military Intelligence.

Now there's an interesting thought:  We always hear about the
Tavrchedl', but rarely do we hear of SORAG.  Kinda like the fact
that we hear a lot about the old Soviet KGB, but not much about the
Soviet GRU.  :-)

Anyway, the following is an excerpt from The 4.5th Frontier War by
Scott Kellogg copyright 1993.

BTW, Loren?  Is GDW interested in people writing novels or short
stories for TNE?  I've kinda been realizing that the 4.5th War
could be re-written as the 5.5th Frontier War in the New Era.

                              * * *

Red was the color of his blood flowing thin
Pallid white was the color of his lifeless skin
Blue was the color of the morning sky
He saw looking up from the ground where he died
It was the last thing ever seen by him

Black and white were the figures that recorded him
Black and white was the newsprint he was mentioned in
Black and white was the question that so bothered him
He never asked, he was taught not to ask
But was on his lips as they buried him
               -- Requiem for the Masses:  The Association

     "When you retired from SORAG, Doctor, you said it was because
you felt your science was being misused."
     Malenkoviepr tensed.  His own logic was about to be used
against him.  He sat in silence.
     Baremkatalashe' continued.  "You said you did not like the way
SORAG used people.  Manipulating people to follow their rule."
     Anger welled up in Mako, "Just as you have been trying to
manipulate me?"
     "How would you feel about the manipulation of our entire
culture?  Twisting the Consulate with a horrible deception."
     Mako's lips curled in disgust, "Oh, your next ambition I take
it..."
     Baremkatalashe' held his head high, "No." he paused for
breath.  "I intend to Stop the manipulation, and I need your help."
     Mako sneered.  "Oh and just what is this monstrous plot you
intend to save us all from?"
     Baremkatalashe' nodded, "Doctor, what shape do you think the
Consulate is in?"
     Malenkoviepr ignored the question, refusing to get into a
conversation.
     Baremkatalashe' waited for a moment before continuing on his
own.  "The Consulate is strong:  socially, economically,
militarily.  The people are content, and well guided.  The
government has ruled well over them for three thousand four hundred
and seven olympiads.
     "The Imperium by contrast is also strong:  economically, and
militarily, but not socially.  They are still buried under their
deceitful ways, and hammered in by the fear of the one tool
necessary to give them the same social stability of our culture:
psionics."
     Malenkoviepr grudgingly nodded.  Some of what Baremkatalashe'
said was true.
     "All right, Doctor," continued the Colonel, "you are an
historian, what is the conflict between the Consulate and the
Imperium?"
     Mako looked at him, he wasn't sure where this would lead.  "Do
you mean our current conflicts or the historical ones?"
     Baremkatalashe' opened his hand, letting Mako choose his own
battlefield.
     Malenkoviepr fell into his professorial voice for delivering
lectures, "The original conflict started about two hundred
Olympiads ago as a territorial dispute.  The Imperium was expanding
too fast into Tloql sector and began to compete with our trade and
harrass our allies in the area.  Pressure built up and we attacked
before they could hem us off from the area.
     "The Second War of Imperial Expansion was really an extension
of the first.  The Imperials were weakened during a period of civil
war and our fleets made moves to continue the work of the First
War.  The root motivations for the fighting were mostly economic
and clashes of different culture and governments.
     "The Holocost changed all that.  The Imperials were initially
reluctant to accept Zhodani use of psionics.  This reluctance
suddenly inflamed to pathological phobia.  The Imperials first
declared that no psionic activity would be tolerated, then they
began rounding up and slaughtering all psionic adepts.
     "What were political and economic struggles became a fight for
survival with each government swearing to annihiliate each other.
The continued fighting of the following Wars of Imperial Expansion
was orders of magnatude more bitter while the Imperials tried to
tear apart the fabric that holds our people together and we fought
not only to save ourselves, but to bring freedom of psionics to the
struggling peoples of the Imperium.
     "The Third War of Imperial Expansion came at another time of
Imperial weakness:  the Imperium was having difficulty on their
coreward side in their attempt to subjugate the Solomani.  The
Consulate took advantage of their weakened fleet strengths and
pushed them farther back from our space.
     "The Fourth War of Imperial Expansion started too early.
Because of losses in intelligence, The Imperials learned of the
coming attack and the fighting started before all the fleets were
in readiness.  As a result, the fleets of both sides were almost
thrown together with no plan or strategy.  Fleets were attrited
before any significant gains could be made, save the foothold on
Esalin.
     Baremkatalasche' nodded, "Yes, Doctor those are the textbook
reasons."  He paused for a moment, gathering his thoughts, "Those
are the causes that are taught to us.  However, I have known the
Supreme Council.  I know something more of the motivations behind
those causes.
     The Colonel spoke with a disgust that seemed old, but not
faded with time, "I can tell you now that the Supreme Council has
no intention of bringing freedom of psionics or of any other kind
to the people of the Imperium.  The Council merely wants to
maintain the status quo.  They make broad sweeping policy
statements about waging a war for democracy, and making the galaxy
safe for psionics, but that is mere propaganda.  Their real
position is that the Imperium is unabsorbable and must be held off
indefinitely.  And in a thousand Olympiads or so, it will be
someone elses problem to deal with because they will be out of
office."
     Baremkatalashche' scowled darkly, "They're afraid Really
trying to absorb the Imperium would cost them their elections.  So
instead they make minor skirmishes against the Imperium to drum up
support for their elections.  Whenever there's trouble, they send
the Guards to some troubled planet to divert the headlines.  But to
start a War really gets the populus distracted, and is a sure way
to win an election when your opponent looks good."
     Malenkoviepr rolled his eyes, "I've heard that argument from
every tenth college sophomore.  It..."
     "It's true." Baremkatalashe' spoke with finality.  "I've been
in on the planning for the next campaign against the Imperium.
They make no plans for absorbing of Imperial planets into the
Consulate.  And the `losses in intelligence' that caused the fiasco
of the Fourth War?  Those were leaks.  Deliberate leaks.  The war
was meant to fail.  We stirred up that nest of Stingers and fought
like nightmares *intentionally*.  To show the Imperium that they
could not absorb US!
     The Colonel relaxed somewhat, "There was no intention of ever
freeing or helping the psionic adepts under Imperial yoke.  None at
all.  That's all just a publicity stunt."
     "If we really meant to save our cousins in the Imperium we
would have done a lot more than made inroads to a mere three
subsectors.  We have almost all the advantage.  Economically, we
are in the same shape.  They have a slight advantage in terms of
technology, but no psionic forces worth speaking of.  And each time
war started, it has been on our terms.  We struck simultaneously
across the front and behind it while they had to react with no
warning.  We could have driven them out of Tloql and Nieklsdia
altogether if we really wanted to.  The Supreme Council will not
commit enough to insure victory, but only enough to scare the
Imperials.  They think that if they just sit back and make
occasional strikes, the Imperium will leave the Consulate alone."
     Baremkatalasche' leaned forward, "Have you ever seen the full
extent of the Imperial madness?  You were right to call it a
pathological phobia.  How many millions of psionic adepts have been
blindly massacred by the mob rule there?  The very people they need
to keep their society peaceful, they shoot down in the streets."
     Baremkatalasche' jerked his thumb back toward himself, "I was
head of SORAG for years.  I sent men and women into the Imperium.
They didn't always come back alive."  He gripped the table and
closed his eyes for a moment.  "Raped...  Murdered...  Sometimes,
they would come back with their minds destroyed...  lobotomized...
tortured...  mutilated...  arms hacked off...  legs chopped off...
ears...  genitalia...  because the Imperials said psionics could
grow new ones...  Once we got an agent back piece by piece...  The
last thing we got was her brain..."
     Malenkoviepr's stomach felt weak.
     Baremkatalasche's eyes were afire.
     The SORAG Colonel took a deep breath.  "We are going to change
all that."
     Malenkoviepr's psi-shield covered his revulsion.
     Baremkatalasche' raised his hand and it clenched into a fist,
"For centuries the Supreme Council have been preaching how we must
make the galaxy safe for psionics.  They do not want to.  Millions
of Zhodani have died trying to free those people from Imperial
domination.  They died for something they believed in.  The Supreme
Council does not believe.  They *Lied* to the Consulate.  They
Lied.  They *LIED* to us.  All those people:  they all died for
*NOTHING*."
     Baremkatalasche's voice rang with sarcasm.  "They have said
'Absorbing those worlds would cost too much...'  It will cost us
more dearly in sons and daughters *NOT* to absorb them.  We must
Crush the Imperium before the Supreme Council turns us all into
liars worse than the Imperials!"
     Malenkoviepr felt his stomach churn.  "I do not believe you."
     Baremkatalasche' nodded sadly.  "I am not surprised.  The
Supreme Council has covered their steps very well.  They do not
want the people to believe it."
     Malenkoviepr eyed Baremkatalasche's face closely.  "You really
believe that is true."
     "Doctor," sighed Baremkatalasche', "I've seen it.  I *know* it
is true."
     The two Citizens stared at each other.
     Silence rang over the room.
     Malenkoviepr leaned forward "Give me your thoughts."
     The colonel eyed the doctor askance.
     Malenkoviepr spread his hands.  "If you believe what you say
is true, then prove it to me."  He looked the colonel in the eye
and repeated his demand, "Give me your thoughts."
     Baremkatalasche' hesitated a moment and then nodded.
     Malenkoviepr stood and approached the colonel.  For the first
time in months Mako willingly dropped his psionic shield.  The
colonel felt a soft touch on his head as Malenkoviepr stretched his
thoughts out into the world.
     A camera focused on the room would have seen nothing but two
men staring at each other.
     What Mako saw was different.  A swirling, shadowy cloak of
electric blue surrounded them.  It blotted out the universe as the
white tendrils of the doctor's mind reached out for the colonel.
Like a writhing mass of feathery snakes, the tendrils quickly
attached themselves to the colonel's brain cocooning the mind,
imprisoning the thoughts within.  Mako then began to slowly open
the colonel's mind up under the light of the search.
     Thoughts flashed through the air.  Pictures.  Sounds.  Words.
Feelings.  Thoughts arched between them like lightning strokes that
left burning afterimages in Mako's brain.
     Confusion swept over the doctor's probings.  Something was odd
here.  That couldn't be the truth...
     Mako was careful.  Baremkatalasche' was as strong a telepath
as any.  Someone in his class could decieve a probing.  He had to
be sure.
     He painstakingly combed through the colonel's mind searching
for mistakes, something he'd missed, some sign of deception...

     Subjective hours later, Baremkatalasche' eyed Mako, who was
deep in thought.
     "You believe me now."  It was not a question.
     Malenkoviepr took a deep breath and let it out.  "Yes."  He
pursed his lips, "What you told me is what you believe.  It may
indeed be true."
     Mako turned away.
     "I need to think."

Copyright 1993, Scott Kellogg
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
"Kellogg is just plain nuts!"  -- H. Beam Piper



------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5888
Date: 15 Aug 1993 10:58:42 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Zhodani society

Well there's been so much posted that I've decided to save a little
space & just sum up my thoughts;


A number of you, speaking form the Zhodani point of view, have made
some very persuasive arguments. I, of course, was speaking from the
Imperial view. I believe that what GDW has done here is tap into the
"Utopian Ideal" that's been around for as long as I can remember. This
idea, creating the "perfect" society was especially popular in the late
'60s thru the 70's. As witnessed by the numerous "alternative lifestyles"
that many people 'experimented' with. The creation of Traveller towards 
the end of this era no doubt had an influence, IMO. The dream of the 
ideal society where all one's needs & wants will be, at the very least, 
seriously considered is a very powerful lure. In my case, I find that 
it's very, very difficult for me to accept that this is possible, psionics 
or not. I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of 
any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one. Therefore I don't think 
it's too surprising that I treat the benevolent assessments of Zhodani 
rule as basic propaganda. Just because they're psionic doesn't mean that 
they're not capable of just as much treachery & deceit as anyone else. 
Maybe even more so, IMO. (I think the 4.5th Frontier War series illustrates 
this quite well, BTW) In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good 
to be true.   

Phil Pugliese
(unreconstructed Imperial)

p.s. As a final example, just suppose the Zhodani decided that the only
thing "normal" about something, take homosexuality for example, was that
it's "normal" to have a certain amount of "abnormal" people crop up in
the natural course of events. Seems to me that it wouldn't be much of a
perfect society for anyone who disagreed. Until they had their attitude
"adjusted" (brainwashed), of course. I wonder if there's a single prole
that *hasn't* had their mental development interfered with? The perfect
slaves. Happy & content. Still slaves though.

------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5889
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 93 19:20:31 PDT
From: kstclair@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Kelly St.Clair)
Subject: TNE - Library Data I'd Like to See


SELDOM FOUNDATION:  Private research institution, established 134/1108 on 
PLANET (SECTOR 0000), dedicated to the study and development of psycho-
history.  The head of the Foundation was Dr. "Seldom", a Hiver and former
head of the sociology department at the University of CITY, PLANET.  Dr.
Seldom was best known not for [his?] papers on advanced psychohistorical
models, but for surprisingly accurate predictions that appeared in local
tabloids.

In 1124, the Foundation broke its usual silence with a press conference, 
in which Dr. Seldom announced that the fall of the Third Imperium was 
inevitable and outlined a plan to preserve as much for the future as
possible.  While this claim was supressed elsewhere by Imperial censors
(under Lucan), worsening conditions on PLANET soon led to widespread 
belieft that the Foundation was right and that only by following its
directives could they hope to survive.

In 1126, however, internal documentation was leaked to the press reveal- 
ing that the Foundation was attempting to subtly guide PLANET society to
a point where they could smoothly take control of the government - a 
responsibility the psychohistorians felt they were best qualified to 
hold, on the premise that the best state is the one that can most
efficiently manipulate the people to do and think as the leaders wish
them to.

In a highly emotional trial in which comparisons were frequently made to
Zhodani society and practices, Dr. Seldom and most of the senior 
researchers were found guilty of treason, conspiracy, and several million
counts of unlawful coercion.  All were executed.



NOTE:  The above entry is not present in any RCES library database.  If
  PCs should somehow learn of the Foundation from rumors or other sources
  and attempt to follow up on it by checking their own records, the Hiver
  technical expert assigned to each RCES vessel will apologetically remind
  them that Imperial-era library data, even when not infected by Virus, is
  notoriously spotty. 

Trust the Hivers.  The Hivers are our Friends.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

AUTHOR'S NOTE:  This post is not intended as an attack on the late Dr.
  Asimov or his works, but rather on the goals and methods of the Second
  Foundation (as revealed in the book of the same name).  Their moral
  justification for manipulating minds and societies seems to me nothing
  more than a refined version of 'might makes right' - we have the power,
  we're justified in using it.  Their plan for the future of humanity is
  a chilling 'utopia', much like the darker visions people have of the
  Zhodani.  On top of all of this, they're not even practicing good 
  science anymore, changing the data/experimental population to fit their
  theories rather than vice versa.  This is called 'fudging the results.' 
  Bad. 

  I guess this library data entry is my way of dealing with the profound
  disgust I felt upon finishing the book - a way of denying the Foundation
  their seemingly-inevitable victory.  I sincerely hope that Dr. Asimov
  did not intend for the Second Foundation to be seen sympathetically. 


- ---------------------------
Kelly St.Clair (Daydreamer)    "Damnit, Jiim!  I'm a doctor, not a Viking!"
kstclair@kira.csos.orst.edu                        L. Mikkoi, M.D., RCES 


------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5890
Date: 	Mon, 16 Aug 1993 01:04:42 -0230
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@mercury.cs.mun.ca>
Subject: Equipment and alternatives

Hello all:

	As I have given up trying to follow the politics of the official
background and have created my own, I can not really relate with most of his
points, but this one....

>From: pihlab@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
>Subject: GDW and the future

	... A few lines left out ...

>11. The move to T:2000 in-house game system is a good rationalisation for
>    GDW but I feel that the equipment stats for HIGHER TECH equipment
>    has been fudged rather badly.  Sure, if I have a TL-10 pistol and
>    we upgrade it to TL-12 we don't JUST want a copy made.  What you need
>    is a branching of capabilities not a straight line "this is now this".
>    The TL-12 pistol would have several variants.  One identical to the
>    original for direct sale to TL-10 worlds at cheaper than TL-10 can
>    produce it, one with better range but with less penetration, one with 
>    better penetration but with less range, one with better penetration at
>    close range but worse penetration at longer ranges but still has the
>    longer range ability.  There doesn't appear to be enough variation
>    for players to role play around ... "Damn he's just out of range, should
>    have bought the other model gun" OR "I always carry two pistols, one
>    for close in people stopping and one for long range".  Do you have plans 
>    for some trade manuals so we can "go shopping"?  It would be nice to front
>    up at a shop and have the GM say "Some binoculars?  Oh well if you look on
>    page 24 you find variants 1-5 and 11 which are available over the
>    counter and he can order in variants 19-24 in 2 weeks or a 25 will take
>    a month.  What would you like?".  Look around today, want to buy a TV; how
>    many variants can you get?  Some variety please.
>
> 
>Just some thoughts...
>
>
>How about the rest of the TMLers ... comments please.
>
>
>Bruce...        pihlab@hhcs.gov.au

	Yeah!!! I agree with that. I found some of the equipment guides so general
that I have taken to stealing and converting from GURPS Ultratech - I have
a lot of equipment write-ups done in WordPerfect for my players to peruse.
Maybe this is going to too much detail, but I think it adds to realism. All
pieces of equipment have their drawbacks and specialties.

	I know that big, thick lists of equipment are a pain in the a** but they
are a good idea. If Loren sees this ( 8-> ) , In my opinion this would be a
really neat product idea... You could do it like the ADnD 2nd Edition Monstrous
Compendiums. You go out, buy Infopacks on certain technology levels (whichever
are applicable for your area of play) and they all fit into a nice binder
(a nice black binder with an Imperial Sunburst or the logo of the Regency?).
I'd go for it! Sounds like a must.

	What about little Infopacks (I like that term...) on firearms and other
neat stuff like the machine tools supplements that appeared a year or so ago.
(I think Rob Dean did those, but I'm not sure).

	Anyway, I've ranted long enough. I guess in the meantime I'll keep raiding
GURPS.

	Confused as usual,
	Anthony Neal

------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5891
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 93 00:18:21 -0700
From: dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov (nosnhoJ enaD)
Subject: Even More Zhodani...


 PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu opines:

- ---
A number of you, speaking form the Zhodani point of view, have made
some very persuasive arguments. I, of course, was speaking from the
Imperial view. 
- ---

	Point Taken :)

- ---
the end of this era no doubt had an influence, IMO. The dream of the 
ideal society where all one's needs & wants will be, at the very least, 
seriously considered is a very powerful lure. In my case, I find that 
it's very, very difficult for me to accept that this is possible, psionics 
or not. I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of 
any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one. Therefore I don't think 
- ---

	Well, clearly, the Zhodani are *not* as technically advanced as
the Imperium, putzing along as they are at TL 14.  Also, the only other
"highly" psionic race, the Droyne, are pretty placid without Mutants
running around to spark innovation.  These facts argue that
civilizations which stand on a foundation composed of Psionics may be
less innovative and "dynamic", but on the other hand they certainly seem
to be stable.  Whether that's a fair trade or not is, of course, up for
grabs...

Your comment about it being difficult to accept this was a little
unclear to me:  I certainly agree that, psionics or no, it'd be hard to
provide a society where everyone's needs and wants are seriously
considered *and* consistantly provided.  However, it doesn't seem so
impossible that we could have a society which values an individual's
wellfare highly and uses whatever means it has at it's disposal to
*attempt* to provide them.  A society which considers an individuals
needs, however, need not be monolithic.  I don't recall anything that
says that the Zhodani, when absorbing (say) a former imperial world,
would wipe out all traces of the planet's cultural heritage.  They
"simply" begin implimenting the "nonviolence" and psionic caste
system...Somewhat frightening, perhaps, but the Imperium also introduces
a Nobility on new planets and subsectors...

- ---
it's too surprising that I treat the benevolent assessments of Zhodani 
rule as basic propaganda. Just because they're psionic doesn't mean that 
they're not capable of just as much treachery & deceit as anyone else. 
Maybe even more so, IMO. (I think the 4.5th Frontier War series illustrates 
this quite well, BTW) In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good 
to be true.   
- ---

Well, of *course* it does.  And, as a consequence, nobody in the
Imperium believes that it's *really* that good.  I suspect it is.  I
wonder if the resistance to the Zhodani culture here on the list stems
from unease at the thought of humans living under such an *alien* form
of government :)  I wonder, if the Zhodani were eight limbed telepathic
giraffes, what the response would be...

- ---
p.s. As a final example, just suppose the Zhodani decided that the only
thing "normal" about something, take homosexuality for example, was that
it's "normal" to have a certain amount of "abnormal" people crop up in
the natural course of events. Seems to me that it wouldn't be much of a
perfect society for anyone who disagreed. Until they had their attitude
"adjusted" (brainwashed), of course. I wonder if there's a single prole
that *hasn't* had their mental development interfered with? The perfect
slaves. Happy & content. Still slaves though.
- ---

This sort of brainwashing is going to depend on several factors:

a) Exactly how many nobles are Telepathic, anyway?

b) Of those, how many are strong enough to do that sort of mind control?

c) How many of the above are actually in the Taverchedl'?

d) Is it really necessary?  The serfs weren't telepathically brainwashed
   Isn't economics wonderful? :)

If pressed, I'd say that the Proles are only zapped once they get out of
line, where "out of line" is starting to think about "crimes".  The
Zhodani probably don't have the telepathic manpower to do fullscale
mental reengineering and "preventive maintanence."  They *do*, however,
start dealing with people as "criminals/sick" once their *intentions*
become dangerous, not once they start doing dangerous things....<Ooo,
sounds awfully machiavellian, eh?>

Sorry this got so long...

Dane, Perfidious Belgian...er, Zhodani Agitator

traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."

------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5892
From: John H Bogan <jbogan@libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu>
Subject: TML and axes
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 93 13:02:30 EDT

Phil,
I know I'm at risk of being one of the "oppressive PC" hordes
for saying this, but...

The TML is for discussing Traveller, not for grinding political axes.
Most of the people responding to you took the Zho's on their own terms,
as a society that has all the trappings of an oppressive state, but due
to the integral psionic culture, it actually works (mostly) as advertised.

This is why they are _ALIENS_.

If you want to read things about the '60's, alternative lifestyles,
and homosexuals into it that's your business, but I for one think
you are so off base that I'd like you to keep your discussions to
Traveller and take your philosophizing to a more appropriate forum.

Doesn't seem odd that a game that has featured mercenaries so prominently,
focused so much on military aspects (should I be from the Navy, Army, 
Marines, Scouts, Merchants, or Other?:) should get all misty-eyed
over the group that served as the major enemy for half the game's 
existence?  Maybe they just wanted to make things a little more
complex than EVIL ZHO'S.

If it really bothers you that much, them _change it for your game_.
It works for this just as much as for things like weapons ranges
or whether or not maneuver drives use thruster plates or fusion
rockets.


Just to note, I am Ccing this to the TML nightly.


Regards,

John H Bogan

still at jbogan@ic.sunysb.edu, though not for long



------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5893
Date:         Mon, 16 Aug 93 14:42:24 CDT
From: Joe Heck <CCJOE@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu>
Subject:      Some new files in the archive

I placed some updates in the archive - mostly the updates for my own version
of the Traveller:TNE character sheets.

They're in the directory /pub/traveller/new and are completely
un-copyrighted.

enjoy,
 joe                          University of Missouri - Columbia
 ccjoe@mizzou1.missouri.edu   (314) 882-5000  the "row me" state

------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5894
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 93 17:51 GMT
From: "ER........" <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
Subject: Lo-tech moon shot

I asked this once before but got no reply, I was wondering if anyone could
help me with this problem before my campaign re-starts.

Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0, 
their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on 
the planets moon.

Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
built to get to the moon?

One solution offered thus far is a lo-tech Lifting Plane that is got upto
hi altitude by balloons.

I relly _need_ some input to sort this lot out....
Thanks
PAVEWAY

	

------------------------------

Bundle: 488
Archive-Message-Number: 5895
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Zhodani perfidy
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 19:41:59 +0100 (METDST)

Phil:
>A number of you, speaking form the Zhodani point of view, have made
>some very persuasive arguments. I, of course, was speaking from the
>Imperial view. I believe that what GDW has done here is tap into the
>"Utopian Ideal" that's been around for as long as I can remember. This
>idea, creating the "perfect" society was especially popular in the late
>'60s thru the 70's. As witnessed by the numerous "alternative lifestyles"
>that many people 'experimented' with. The creation of Traveller towards 
>the end of this era no doubt had an influence, IMO. The dream of the 
>ideal society where all one's needs & wants will be, at the very least, 
>seriously considered is a very powerful lure. In my case, I find that 
>it's very, very difficult for me to accept that this is possible, psionics 
>or not. 

Why? It's been achieved on Earth in limited areas for brief periods of
time. All that is needed is that the society produces more than its
citizen needs (That dosen't mean that any such society will achieve it,
just that its possible in those circumstances).

>I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of 
>any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one. 

Whoa! Where does it say that Zhodani society is monolitic? How would you
like  diverse society where nobody lies, cheats, or steals? Might that
not be worth considering?

>Therefore I don't think 
>it's too surprising that I treat the benevolent assessments of Zhodani 
>rule as basic propaganda. Just because they're psionic doesn't mean that 
>they're not capable of just as much treachery & deceit as anyone else. 

Actually, they're not (at least, not going by the rules). They have to
be specially _trained_ to lie, for example.

>Maybe even more so, IMO. (I think the 4.5th Frontier War series illustrates 
>this quite well, BTW) 

It illustrates what the Zhodani of Scott's universe are capable of. It
dosen't say anything about the official zhodani except insofar as Scott
has managed to capture GDWs intentions.

>In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good to be true.   

As someone else pointed out, that's why they're _alien_!



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 93 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #489: Msgs 5896-5908 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Aug 22 22:00:03 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 93 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #489: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 489  5896 17-Aug-1993 rancke@diku.dk   Zhodani perfidy << Phil:
 489  5897 17-Aug-1993 Bertil Jonell    Equipment << > 7.  While I'm not keen o
 489  5898 17-Aug-1993 Bertil Jonell    Armours <<   I did this for my campaign
 489  5899 18-Aug-1993 Adrian Hurt      Re: Lo-tech moon shot << "ER........" <
 489  5900 18-Aug-1993 R.W. Moore       Re: Lo-tech Moon Shot << >Problem: 1-5 
 489  5901 18-Aug-1993 "Bruce T. Ritch  RE: Lo-tech moon shot << >Problem: 1-5 
 489  5902 18-Aug-1993 gsw@aloft.att.c  Re: Lo-tech moon shot << > Subject: Lo-
 489  5903 18-Aug-1993 Joe Heck         Odd question for you Astro-Guru's out t
 489  5904 18-Aug-1993 Bertil Jonell    Lo-tech moon shot << > From: "ER.......
 489  5905 18-Aug-1993 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Zhodani << Phil:
 489  5906 18-Aug-1993 Bertil Jonell    Thanks <<   To all who responded to my 
 489  5907 18-Aug-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     Mercenary Cruisers... << I recently acq
 489  5908 18-Aug-1993 Scott S. Kellog  Utopia definition << Ya'll gettin' tire

------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5896
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Zhodani perfidy
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 19:41:59 +0100 (METDST)

Phil:
>A number of you, speaking form the Zhodani point of view, have made
>some very persuasive arguments. I, of course, was speaking from the
>Imperial view. I believe that what GDW has done here is tap into the
>"Utopian Ideal" that's been around for as long as I can remember. This
>idea, creating the "perfect" society was especially popular in the late
>'60s thru the 70's. As witnessed by the numerous "alternative lifestyles"
>that many people 'experimented' with. The creation of Traveller towards 
>the end of this era no doubt had an influence, IMO. The dream of the 
>ideal society where all one's needs & wants will be, at the very least, 
>seriously considered is a very powerful lure. In my case, I find that 
>it's very, very difficult for me to accept that this is possible, psionics 
>or not. 

Why? It's been achieved on Earth in limited areas for brief periods of
time. All that is needed is that the society produces more than its
citizen needs (That dosen't mean that any such society will achieve it,
just that its possible in those circumstances).

>I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of 
>any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one. 

Whoa! Where does it say that Zhodani society is monolitic? How would you
like  diverse society where nobody lies, cheats, or steals? Might that
not be worth considering?

>Therefore I don't think 
>it's too surprising that I treat the benevolent assessments of Zhodani 
>rule as basic propaganda. Just because they're psionic doesn't mean that 
>they're not capable of just as much treachery & deceit as anyone else. 

Actually, they're not (at least, not going by the rules). They have to
be specially _trained_ to lie, for example.

>Maybe even more so, IMO. (I think the 4.5th Frontier War series illustrates 
>this quite well, BTW) 

It illustrates what the Zhodani of Scott's universe are capable of. It
dosen't say anything about the official zhodani except insofar as Scott
has managed to capture GDWs intentions.

>In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good to be true.   

As someone else pointed out, that's why they're _alien_!



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5897
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Equipment
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 21:37:57 +0200 (MET DST)

> 7.  While I'm not keen on rolling lots of dice in combat I find the armour
>     penetration rules a bit too black and white.  Oh you've got that gun and 
>     I've got this armour so you can't hurt me.

  You'll still get blunt trauma and enough blunt trauma in the right place
(like the head for example) knocks out.

> 9.  The fact that TNE combat does very little damage can mean that combats
>     run on for long periods.  In the case of the head and chest rule
>     of saving throws for death by NPCs it goes to the other extreme with
>     one shot kills for NPCs but players dragging on until all their blood
>     has drained away.  There must be some middle ground where realism can
>     at least share the lime light with playability.  What combat mods are
>     people implementing along these lines?

  Over here we:

  1: Halve all hitpoints (for PC's:)

  2: Use open-ended damage rolls (each 6 means that an *extra* d6 is rolled ad
     infinitum).

  3: Head and chest rolls for PCs too (but not death, 'just' immediate serious
     level *plus* double original damage)

  4: Has an extra 'destroyed' wound level at double critical. Destroyed 
     extremities need replacement, destroyed chest or abdomen means death
     (with reservation for low-berthing and other high-tech stuff).

  5: Uses damage levels computed with 3G3 (22LR = 1D, 9Para = 2D, 5.56 = 4D,
     7.62 = 5D).
 
> 10. We converted our characters to TNE and found the 'feel' of the game to
>     have been totally changed.  Preferred weapons now don't penetrate and
>     don't have anywhere near the knock down ability they had before. 

  I'm working on redoing most weapons with 3G3, and although I've got as far
as to rifles it is placed below several other more important things on my
'stack'.
  But I *will* post the armour list I made.

> Bruce...        pihlab@hhcs.gov.au
 
- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5898
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Armours
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 22:03:24 +0200 (MET DST)

  I did this for my campaign last friday. It is a modification of the data
from TTNE, with additions from One Small Step, MegaT, Traveller, the MTJ1
article on battle dress and a certain amount of fiddling, tweaking and 
shortcutting of my own doing.

  AV: 'N' means nil armour value, ie anything will pass without any reductions
      in damage.
      Parenthetical values are for melee attacks, Double this to get the
      number of *points* to subtract from the attack (not dice). If no
      paranthetical value exists, subtract twice the normal AV rating treating
      both '0' and 'N' as 0.
      '0' means that it will stop weapons where the Dam and Pen weapons
      are equal, but not affect weapons with larger Dam than Pen.
      If there are two figures separated by a '/', then the first is for the
      body and the second for the head.
      If there are three figures separated by '/'s, then the first is for
      chest and abdomen, the second for the arms, legs and for the head
      and the third is for the face plate.
      (Head shots will hit the face plate on 1-2 on 1D6. It is optional to
       vary this chance based on wether the shot hits from the front, side or
       rear:)

   'P' means that at this TL, the at lower TLs unpowered armour will normally
       be powered.

   'S' means that at this TL self-sealing is standard on the armour.

   'H' means that at this TL a holographic viewscreen on the inside of the
       face plate is standard on the armour.

  Why are low-tech weapons better against melee attacks than many hightech 
weapons? It is because they derive much of their protection from metal plates
as shown by their weight. It is optional to multiply the AV of hard armours
(Hostile Env Vac, Combat, Battle, low-tech Vac's) with four or more to get
the number of points of damage they absorb from melee attacks.

  Disclaimer: I would *not* recomend the use of these armour levels with the
	      standard TTNE weapons damage and penetrations, since they were
	      designed for use with my variants of the weapons. But I promise
	      to get some weapons out before the TechArchie book comes out:)

	 1         2         3         4         5         6         7         8
12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890

Description      TL  Vol   Wt      AV     HitLocs      Price   AGL  Init
Helmet            0    1    1       N(2)  (H)             10        
Leather Vest      0    3    3       N(2)    C,A           30        
Jack              0    4    5       N(2)    C,A,Ar        50    -1    
Leather Pants     0    3    5       N(2)      A,L         30        
Mail Vest         1    4   15       0(4)    C,A          200        
Half Mail         1    2   10       0(4)    C            100        
Full Mail         1    8   30       0(4)    C,A,Ar,L     400    -1    
Helmet            1    2    4       0(6)  (H)             20        
Helm              1    8   10       0(6)  H               50          -1
Breastplate       1   40   30       0(6)    C,A          300    -1    
Plate             1   80   50       0(6)    C,A,Ar,L    1000    -2    -1
Helmet            2    2    2       1(8)  (H)             30        
Helm              2    8    5       1(8)  H               60          -1
Breastplate       2   40   20       1(8)    C,A          500    -1    
Plate             2   80   40       1(8)    C,A,Ar,L    1500    -2    -1
Helmet            4    5    3       1(4)  (H)             20        
Flak Jacket       4    7   18       1(2)    C,A          200    -2    
GP Vac            4  600  200        2/N  H,C,A,Ar,L   22500    -9    -4
Helmet            5    5    3       1(2)  (H)             20        
Flak Jacket       5    6   14       1(2)    C,A          200    -1    
GP Vac            5  500  160        1/N  H,C,A,Ar,L   16000    -7    -3
Helmet            6    5    2          1  (H)             20        
Flak Jacket       6    5   10          1    C,A          300    -1    
GP Vac            6  400  120        1/N  H,C,A,Ar,L   24000    -5    -2
Helmet            7    5    1          1  (H)             30        
Flak Jacket       7    4    8          1    C,A          400    -1    
BC Vest           7    3    6          1    C,A          600        
BC Body Suit      7    7   15          1    C,A,Ar,L    2000    -1    
GP Vac            7  400   80     0(2)/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   36000    -3    -1
HstEnv Vac        7  800  120        1/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   56000    -5    -2
BW Helmet         8    5  0,5          1    (H)           40        
BW Vest           8    2    4       1(4)    C,A          800        
BW Body Suit      8    5   10       1(4)    C,A,Ar,L    4000    -1    
GP Vac            8  400   50     0(2)/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   24000    -3    -1
HstEnv Vac        8  600   80        1/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   28000    -4    -1
CES               9   10   10  2(4)/1(4)    C,A,Ar,L    8000        
GP Vac            9  300   40     0(2)/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   12000    -3    -1
HstEnv Vac        9  500   60        1/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   14000    -3    -1
Combat           10  120   40      4/2/1  H,C,A,Ar,L   22000    -1    
Battle           10  350   45      4/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  115000    -3    -2
FO Battle        10  350   45      4/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  215000    -3    -2
Cmdo Battle      10  375   50      5/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  265000    -3    -2
Assault Battle   10  425   55      6/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  315000    -4    -2
GP Vac           10  300   30        1/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   10000    -3    
HstEnv Vac       10  400   40        1/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   16000    -3    -1
Combat           11  120   35      4/2/1  H,C,A,Ar,L   26000    -1    
Battle           11  300   40      5/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  130000    -3    -1
FO Battle        11  300   40      5/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  230000    -3    -1
Cmdo Battle      11  325   45      6/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  280000    -3    -1
Assault Battle   11  375   50      7/3/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  330000    -4    -1
GP Vac           11  200   20        1/0  H,C,A,Ar,L    9000    -2    
HstEnv Vac       11  300   30        1/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   18000    -3    
Combat           12  100   30      5/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L   30000    -1    
Battle           12  250   35      6/4/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  165000    -2    -1
FO Battle        12  250   35      6/4/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  265000    -2    -1
Cmdo Battle      12  275   40      7/4/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  315000    -2    -1
Assault Battle   12  325   45      8/4/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  365000    -3    -1
GP Vac           12  200   18        2/0  H,C,A,Ar,L    8000    -1    
HstEnv Vac       12  300   26        2/0  H,C,A,Ar,L   20000    -3    
Combat           13  100   25      5/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L   32000    -1    
Battle           13  225   30      6/4/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  200000    -2    -1
FO Battle        13  225   30      6/4/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  300000    -2    -1
Cmdo Battle      13  250   35      7/4/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  350000    -2    -1
Assault Battle   13  300   40      8/4/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  400000    -3    -1
IM Assault       13  325   45     10/5/3  H,C,A,Ar,L  700000    -3    
GP Vac           13  100   18        2/0  H,C,A,Ar,L    7000    -1    
Tailored Vac     13   20    6        1/N  H,C,A,Ar,L   40000        
Hard Helmet      13   10    3          0  H              500        
HstEnv Vac P     13  200   24        2/0  H,C,A,Ar,L  100000    -2    -1
Combat H         14   80   23      6/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L   36000    -1    
Battle H         14  200   30      8/5/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  270000    -1    -1
FO Battle        14  200   30      8/5/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  370000    -1    -1
Cmdo Battle      14  225   35      9/5/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  420000    -1    -1
Assault Battle   14  275   40     10/5/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  470000    -2    -1
IM Assault       14  300   45     12/6/3  H,C,A,Ar,L  770000    -2    
GP Vac           14  100   16        2/0  H,C,A,Ar,L    7000        
Tailored Vac     14   10    4        1/N  H,C,A,Ar,L    9000        
Hard Helmet H    14   10    2          0  H             1200        
HstEnv Vac P     14  200   32        3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  150000    -2    -1
Combat HS        15   80   21      6/3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L   40000    -1    
Battle HS        15  175   25     10/6/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  340000    -1    -1
FO Battle        15  175   25     10/6/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  440000    -1    -1
Cmdo Battle      15  200   30     11/6/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  490000    -1    -1
Assault Battle   15  250   35     12/6/3  H,C,A,Ar,L  540000    -2    -1
IM Assault       15  275   35     14/7/4  H,C,A,Ar,L  840000    -2    
GP Vac S         15  100   14        2/0  H,C,A,Ar,L    9000        
Tailored Vac S   15   10    3        1/N  H,C,A,Ar,L   10000        
Hard Helmet H    15   10    2          0  H             1000        
HstEnv Vac PS    15  200   30        3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  175000    -2    -1
Combat HS        16   80   19      7/4/2  H,C,A,Ar,L   45000    -1    
Battle HS        16  150   20     12/7/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  410000    -1    -1
FO Battle        16  150   20     12/7/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  510000    -1    -1
Cmdo Battle      16  175   25     13/7/2  H,C,A,Ar,L  560000    -1    -1
Assault Battle   16  225   30     14/7/3  H,C,A,Ar,L  610000    -2    -1
IM Assault       16  250   35     16/8/4  H,C,A,Ar,L  910000    -2    
GP Vac S         16  100   12        2/0  H,C,A,Ar,L    8000        
Tailored Vac S   16    5    2        1/N  H,C,A,Ar,L    8000        
Hard Helmet H    16   10    1          0  H             1000        
HstEnv Vac PS    16  200   28        3/1  H,C,A,Ar,L  175000    -1    

- -bertil-
- -- 
                                            |	               __     __
                                            |	         W   W __\<O /__  F 5   
              |				    |	           W    __\|/__        
              |	                           /U\		Docendo  m   m  Dicimus
        _____/U\_____               -----/|/.\|\-----	
  X--------[|(.)|]--------X   -----------\|\_/|/------------	
     X -O-   (_)   -O- X         X   X     (_)     X   X

------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5899
From: adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Lo-tech moon shot
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 9:15:42 WET DST

"ER........" <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK> writes:
> 
> Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0, 
> their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on 
> the planets moon.
> 
> Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
> built to get to the moon?

If anyone answers "yes", could they please inform NASA, ESA or some other
suitable organisation of how they propose to do it? :-)

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cee
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5900
From: rwm12@cus.cam.ac.uk (R.W. Moore)
Subject: Re: Lo-tech Moon Shot
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 09:54:30 +0100 (BST)

>Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0, 
>their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on 
>the planets moon.
>
>Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
>built to get to the moon?
>
>One solution offered thus far is a lo-tech Lifting Plane that is got upto
>hi altitude by balloons.

I think it would be EXTREMELY unlikely given any sensible amount of time
(less than 1000yrs say). Hi-altitude planes are useless as are ballons since
both require an atmosphere to work. Even assuming they produced some sort
of thruster (say evaporating water into the vacuum - rockets require liquid
O2 which is a not possible without complex cooling apparatus) they would
need a computer to plot the course and control the craft (even to do this you
have to have some means of determining your position in space). A further 
problem is the velocity change (delta-v) that they would require to land safely
on the moon, water thrusters would be nowhere near powerful enough.

However it might be possible if they landed on the planet with vacc suits,
given a generous ref :-). Using the high altitude glider + balloons to gain
altitude they could then have constructed some simple rockets fueled with,
say alcohol, and use the remaining atmosphere coupled with the oxygen
supplies from some of their vacc suits - this would be a one man trip only.
These rockets could then thrust the one pilot out of the planets gravity
given a thruster pack attached to his vacc suit and towards the moon.
This one guy then has the time it takes him to reach the moons surface from
maximum vacc suit communication range to tell the TL15 ship to pick him
up - otherwise he's dead. (A kinder alternative would be to allow him
to achieve orbit round the moon - but that might overtax his vacc suit's 
computer, prehaps a decaying orbit? :-)

Hope that gives you some ideas,

Roger





------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5901
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 08:18:37 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bruce T. Ritchie, P.S.C. Electronic Media Coordinator"
Subject: RE: Lo-tech moon shot

>Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type
>world at TL0,  their only means of returning to civilisation is to get
>to the TL15 vessel on  the planets moon.
>Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a
>ship be built to get to the moon?

     Knowledge is always a powerful tool. Assuming they have access to
a data bank (such as is in their ship on the moon) they should be able
to build something. One question is `How did they get there'? Did they
crash their shuttle? If that's the case rebuilding would be easier than
building from scratch. If they were abandoned with no resources other
than their wits, well... Could _you_ build a pocket calculator from a
sandy beach? I mean, most of the materials are there, so why not? The
single biggest advantage they have is this: They KNOW it can be done!
     There was a book by, I think, Jerry Pournelle called "King David's
Spaceship" in which a low tech civilization had to build a successful
spaceship to qualify for membership in a high-tech alliance. Their
solution, using explosives to litterally `blast off', was interesting,
and might apply. 
     brucer

------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5902
From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 08:38:03 EDT
Subject: Re: Lo-tech moon shot

> Subject: Lo-tech moon shot

> Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0, 
> their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on 
> the planets moon.

> Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
> built to get to the moon?

> One solution offered thus far is a lo-tech Lifting Plane that is got upto
> hi altitude by balloons.

> PAVEWAY

I would probably forget the lifting-plane/balloon idea.  They will eventually
need a rocket and a guidance system anyway to get to the moon.  They would
probably be best served by concentrating on that objective, then building one
BIG enough to get them into orbit.

As far as accomplishing it, there are a few factors to consider:

o What are their skills and aptitudes?  If a few of them are astronauts and
  the others are engineers and skilled craftsmen, then they would have a
  better chance.  It would take years to build up a technological base to
  even try to accomplish the task, though.  They would need metal foundries,
  a way to generate the propellant, probably electrical generators, etc.

o Do they have help from the natives?  This could lead to some interesting
  campaign developments.  If they could learn to communicate with the natives
  they could set up a religious following where the "priests" are taught to
  select the most intelligent of their followers to become priests themselves
  in the PC's "holy city".  Some would go back into the world.  Others would
  work on improving the technological base.  Some would eventually be able to
  learn skills that the PC's don't possess (eg: none of them could ever quite
  get the hang of celestial navigation, even though they understood the basic
  concepts).  This offers many plot variations.  The commoners (and perhaps
  most of the priests) would consider the technology magic.  They might react
  badly to this or to the priesthood (which steals their children).  The
  religion would have to teach ethics, morality, and spirituality (like a
  real religion) to keep the commoners happy.  The world might get "turned
  on" to technology.  Wars could be waged.  The PC's could be regarded as
  gods.  The PC's might have children (by other PC's or natives).  What will
  happen when the PC's leave?

I think with the right set of skills, the PC's should be able to rebuild the
technological base necessary.  The problem is that if they are missing any
skills, they would have no way to learn them, unless they had a "how things
work" book.

Even if they understand all of the skills that they need, they might not have
the aptitude for certain things.  They also would probably need raw muscle.
The natives could help here, as well as developing some (very few) skills
once they are taught the basics about a field.

You as GM could guide them along the religion lines through some type of
developments (the natives begin bringing offerings, perhaps), and then show
them that it is not easy being a god (when they have to teach the natives to
stop eating each other).  Once they start referring to the natives as "their
people", you have them hooked.

By the way, where are they going to get anagathics?

,-----------------.
|Gerald S Williams|
|gsw@aloft.att.com|
|  (215)439-7237  |
`-----------------'

      _  |     ____/    _  |
     /   /    /        /   /      /                         /
    /   /  ____ |     ____/   _  _/     __ |     __ |      /       ____/
   /   /        /    /          /      /   /    /   /     /     ____
______/  ______/  __/         ___/   _____/   _____/    ___/   ______/


------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5903
Date:         Wed, 18 Aug 93 10:32:10 CDT
From: Joe Heck <CCJOE@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu>
Subject:      Odd question for you Astro-Guru's out there

I've been playing with the idea of mapping traveller star systems into 3D
space, but I have a few questions about space in general that I have less
than a rudimentary knowledge of:

1> How "thick" is our galaxy? (in parsecs or light years) If I'm mapping it
   into 3D, I want to have a general idea of how much vertical space I have
   to work with.

2> Lots of SF works speak of nebulas. Where are these things located and how
   big are they? I've not seen any descriptions of these in Traveller and it
   seemed like a neat thing to include.

Any help?

 joe                          University of Missouri - Columbia
 ccjoe@mizzou1.missouri.edu   (314) 882-5000  the "row me" state

------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5904
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Lo-tech moon shot
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 22:46:05 +0200 (MET DST)

> From: "ER........" <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
> Subject: Lo-tech moon shot
 
> Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0, 
> their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on 
> the planets moon.
> 
> Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
> built to get to the moon?

  What do you mean by TL0? TL0 covers everything from Joe Neandethal with his
trusty cudgel to the Roman Empire tech with concrete, siege machinery and
extremely crude steam engines.

  But I'm leaning towards not possible. No way in the Joe Neanderthal case
and probably no way in the Roman case.

  The main problem is materials tech. Is black powder good enough to reach
escape velocity? Is the metalwork TL high enough to make an air-tight ship?
How about the engine, will the materials hold together? Even if you get to
orbit with it and it is tight enough, is it possible to construct maneuvering
thrusters for orbital injections (main problem: igniting and shutting them 
off).

  Do they have some higher-TL equipment like the wreakage of a small craft?
Then it might be possible to strap something together using the grav plates
from the craft powered by a steam-engine driven generator (possible at
Roman TL).

  Is there any relic tech just lying around?

  How big resources do they have? Pharao-level or peasant-level?
 
> PAVEWAY
 
- -bertil- 
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5905
Date: 18 Aug 1993 13:57:00 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Zhodani


Phil:
>A number of you, speaking form the Zhodani point of view, have made
>some very persuasive arguments. I, of course, was speaking from the
>Imperial view. I believe that what GDW has done here is tap into the
>"Utopian Ideal" that's been around for as long as I can remember. This
>idea, creating the "perfect" society was especially popular in the late
>'60s thru the 70's. As witnessed by the numerous "alternative lifestyles"
>that many people 'experimented' with. The creation of Traveller towards 
>the end of this era no doubt had an influence, IMO. The dream of the 
>ideal society where all one's needs & wants will be, at the very least, 
>seriously considered is a very powerful lure. In my case, I find that 
>it's very, very difficult for me to accept that this is possible, psionics 
>or not. 

Hans:
Why? It's been achieved on Earth in limited areas for brief periods of
time. All that is needed is that the society produces more than its
citizen needs (That dosen't mean that any such society will achieve it,
just that its possible in those circumstances).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
Reminds me of some of the accounts, written by the savemasters, of 
course, describing the "utopia" of plantation life. Reminds me
of a book about Darwin I read a long time ago. He talks about visiting a
plantatiion in Brazil, where the master assured him that this was a virtual
heaven on earth. He even trotted out his slaves & sure enough, not a single
one expressed the wish to be free! Well, Darwin wasn't fooled. He knew
a slave society when he saw one & so do I! The problem isn't producing
more than the citizens *need*, it's producing more than the citizens *want*.
I submit that the Zhodani have no where near as much as they want and their
society's behavior reflects that. On the other hand their expansion could
just be old fashioned 'crusading', I suppose. Just as bad, IMO.
==========================================================================

Phil:  
>I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of 
>any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one. 

Hans:
Whoa! Where does it say that Zhodani society is monolitic? How would you
like  diverse society where nobody lies, cheats, or steals? Might that
not be worth considering?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
It's right there in the books. It's the job of the Tavrchedl, as the "Sword
& Shield" the Zhodani ruling class, to ensure conformity. All dissimilar
cultures *must* yield to the Zhodani "One True Vision", or else, as the
Imperium has found out a number of times. As I said before, it's the na-
ture of such regimes. The greatest threat to them is the existence of 
*any* other form of society. 

"Nobody lies, steals & cheats"? Give me a break! Nobody *but* the ruling
class you mean. (Remember, *they* get the benefit of rights, unlike the
teeming "masses".) Of course, if *everyone* had the right to pyshic pri-
vacy then the Tavrchedl couldn't do their job. But after all, these proles
are just inferior creatures anyway, aren't they? They *need* to be cared
for so they don't do themselves harm. (Now, where have I *heard* that be-
fore?) Any society that believes that it's fine , even desirable, to ex-
clude such a portion of their population from enjoying any sort of inher-
ent rights, cannot be a Utopia. Medieval, yes; utopia, no. 
=======================================================================

Phil:
>Therefore I don't think 
>it's too surprising that I treat the benevolent assessments of Zhodani 
>rule as basic propaganda. Just because they're psionic doesn't mean that 
>they're not capable of just as much treachery & deceit as anyone else. 

Hans:
Actually, they're not (at least, not going by the rules). They have to
be specially _trained_ to lie, for example.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
Doesn't *everyone* have to learn to lie. No doubt it doesn't take long to
learn that much can be gained from lying. Just as in any human society.
(Zhodani *were* still human, last I heard)
=========================================================================

Phil:
>In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good to be true.   

Hans:
As someone else pointed out, that's why they're _alien_!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Phil:
And, as I've pointed out, they're also human too! With all the millenia 
of common terran evolution still embedded in their "human nature". On the 
other hand, I suppose someone could say there's an "alien" society not too 
far from where I live. It's called the Republic of Mexico!

As Catie said; "they're *still* slaves." (sic). A slave society is
still a slave society & I just can't see how that could be considered
anything but a dystopia.
      
Phil Pugliese

ppugliese.pimacc.pima.edu



------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5906
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Thanks
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 23:14:34 +0200 (MET DST)

  To all who responded to my question about the yatch plans.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5907
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 16:30:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov>
Subject: Mercenary Cruisers...

I recently acquired a copy of Adventure 7 and was glancing at the High
Guard stats (which I can no longer read by sight :) for the Broadsword and
it looked to me like the ship had Jump 3 and Maneuver 3.  I decided to
check, and imagine my surprise when T:TNE listed the 800 ton Mercenary
Cruiser as Jump 1 Maneuver 1!  Well, undaunted, I checked with MegaTrav: 
Same Answer.

So, I whipped out the Black Books and, sure enough, a Class C 800 ton
Mercenary Cruiser has Jump 3 Maneuver 3.  What gives?  Did T:TNE propogate
an error from MegaTrav, or did somebody decide to retcon things?

Dane

traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."


------------------------------

Bundle: 489
Archive-Message-Number: 5908
From: skellogg@lonestar.utsa.edu (Scott S. Kellogg)
Subject: Utopia definition
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 21:47:05 CDT

Ya'll gettin' tired of this thread?

Me too.

Just a quick word as Phil seems to be upset at the description of
slaves and classes in Utopia.  I know this is niggling, but I
believe the original Utopia was ruled by philospoher kings and indeed
had a lower class who were watched over.

Rather similar to the Zho system, I think.  The philosopher kings were
the tough bit to find, as no one could find a completely wise and honest
philospher king.  With Telepathy as common as it is in the Consulate,
One might conclude that the Zhodani 'nobles' (I think they are more like
Roman Citizens than 'nobles') would be the best candidates for the job
as described.

They are not, however, completely wise.  Being human.
- --
Scott 2G Kellogg
"Kellogg is just plain nuts!"  -- H. Beam Piper


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 93 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #490: Msgs 5909-5918 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Aug 22 22:00:03 EDT 1993
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Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 93 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #490: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 490  5909 18-Aug-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     Even More Zhodani (long) << >Phil [resp
 490  5910 19-Aug-1993 "ER........"     What the castaways have <<   Desert pla
 490  5911 19-Aug-1993 rancke@diku.dk   Zhodani << >From Phil:
 490  5912 19-Aug-1993 Mark Urbin       Merc crusiers <<   The drop from J-3/M-
 490  5913 20-Aug-1993 Timothy Little   Various... << [... Stranded astronauts 
 490  5914 19-Aug-1993 "John C. Orthoe  Re: Lo-tech moon shot << here is the me
 490  5915 19-Aug-1993 colin roald      Re: Utopia << The "philosopher-king" is
 490  5916 20-Aug-1993 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Summation? << Well I'll try to sum this
 490  5917 20-Aug-1993 R.W. Moore       Moonshot << >> Using the high altitude 
 490  5918 20-Aug-1993 RJR96326@VAX1.U  Traveller << These are just a few notes

------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5909
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 22:53:23 -0700
From: dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov (nosnhoJ enaD)
Subject: Even More Zhodani (long)

>Phil [responding to some of Hans' points]:
 
>Reminds me of some of the accounts, written by the savemasters, of 
>course, describing the "utopia" of plantation life. Reminds me
>of a book about Darwin I read a long time ago. He talks about visiting a
>plantatiion in Brazil, where the master assured him that this was a virtual
>heaven on earth. He even trotted out his slaves & sure enough, not a single
>one expressed the wish to be free! Well, Darwin wasn't fooled. He knew
>a slave society when he saw one & so do I! The problem isn't producing
>more than the citizens *need*, it's producing more than the citizens *want*.
>I submit that the Zhodani have no where near as much as they want and their
>society's behavior reflects that. On the other hand their expansion could
>just be old fashioned 'crusading', I suppose. Just as bad, IMO.
==========================================================================
 
 
Dane:
      Which behavior are you talking about?  Which expansion are you refering
to, exactly?  The Imperium is a whole heck of a lot more expansive than the
Zhodani, actually.  This is also in the books...Zhodani Module, pg 9: 
"...recent Zhodani history has been dominated by their emnity towards the
Imperium, with personal distaste reinforced by a feeling that the Imperium
seeks to hamper Zhodane's *slow, conservative expansion* by pre-empting the
best planets and otherwise limiting growth."  Emphasis mine.  Page 10:  "The
Zhodani Consulate is roughly at the limits of growth; further expansion of its
borders would strain interior communications without providing great amounts
of additional benefit.  Instead, attention has been directed, in the long
term, toward the galactic core."
 
      If you mean the Frontier wars, I offer this, taken from page 66 of the
Rebellion Sourcebook (MegaTrav):  
 
"...it is natural for the Spinward Marches to fear a Zhodani invasion. 
Indeed, that fear was the purpose of the centuries' Zhodani aggression
(sic)...The multi-generation campaign to protect the Zhodani Consulate from
the largest human empire in existence has been a success.  In the early years
of the Imperium there was a real possibility that Imperials would expand into
Zhodani territory.  Now, the Imperium is falling apart; no longer is it a
threat to the Zhodani."
 
- ------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
>Phil:  
>I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of 
>any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one. 
 
>Hans:
>Whoa! Where does it say that Zhodani society is monolitic? How would you
>like  diverse society where nobody lies, cheats, or steals? Might that
>not be worth considering?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>It's right there in the books. It's the job of the Tavrchedl, as the "Sword
>& Shield" the Zhodani ruling class, to ensure conformity. All dissimilar
>cultures *must* yield to the Zhodani "One True Vision", or else, as the
>Imperium has found out a number of times. As I said before, it's the na-
>ture of such regimes. The greatest threat to them is the existence of 
>*any* other form of society. 
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Dane:
      Yes and no.  Yes, on page 14 of Zhodani it says that they monitor all of
Zhodani society and conduct periodic examinations and sweeps of everybody's
mental health, looking for signs of deviant thought patterns and unacceptable
behavior.  Re-education is also visited upon the Noble class, however, as is
pointed out in the "Legal System" section on page 13.  Clearly, from the
quotes up above the Frontier wars were *not* wars of conversion; they had
nothing to do with the Tavrchedl'.
 
      As for 'all dissimilar cultures yielding,' take a look on page 10, where
it says:  "...expansion encountered a variety of human and non-human cultures,
many of them long-standing and well-established.  Some of t;hose cultures have
been enticed into accepting Zhodani ways, with most of them having been
absorbed into the Consulate.  Others have remained client states of the
Consulate; still others have resisted the Zhodani, accepting Imperial aid or
depending on their own resources."  
 
      Hardly the Evil Juggernaut Phil is trying to make them out to be.
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
>Phil:
 
>"Nobody lies, steals & cheats"? Give me a break! Nobody *but* the ruling
>class you mean. (Remember, *they* get the benefit of rights, unlike the
>teeming "masses".) Of course, if *everyone* had the right to pyshic pri-
>vacy then the Tavrchedl couldn't do their job. But after all, these proles
>are just inferior creatures anyway, aren't they? They *need* to be cared
>for so they don't do themselves harm. (Now, where have I *heard* that be-
>fore?) Any society that believes that it's fine , even desirable, to ex-
>clude such a portion of their population from enjoying any sort of inher-
>ent rights, cannot be a Utopia. Medieval, yes; utopia, no. 
>=======================================================================
 
Dane:
      This is a little stickier:  Yes, the Zhodani have a two class system
with one portion being denied *voting* rights.  The Imperium also has a Noble
class often exempted from certain restrictions.  Many of the Imperial
planetary governments are even more heinous than that!  Consider three other
points, however.
 
      1)  Page 12 of Zhodani:  "The advanced educational tools available to
the Zhodani make it possible for nearly all members of society to see their
own potential and to see the paths they can take toward realizing it."
 
      2)  Page 13 of Zhodani:  "Trust is an assumption.  Locks are rare, and
more likely safety devices to protect children than anti-theft devices.  Walls
protect from teh elements rather than from intruders.  Laws deal more with
appropriate action than with crimes."
 
      3)  The legal system is hardly lacking in Prole Rights.  It simply
doesn't give the Proles the vote.  They are judged by a *telepath* as to
whether they are guilty, evidence *is* heard, and so forth.  The *same*
procedure is applied to Nobles, except that a Noble of higher rank must sit in
judgement.  Page 13:  "For the good of all concerned, a convicted Noble is
usually transferred to another location or world rather than returned to his
or her original position after re-education."
 
      So, Phil's declaration that *of course* they lie and cheat because
they're human is completely false *according to the books*.  If he wants to
portray the Nobles in that manner he's (of course) welcome to, but the books
are explicit in saying that such crime is *unknown* in the Zhodani Consulate -
- - neither Prole nor Noble does it.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 
>Hans:
>Actually, they're not (at least, not going by the rules). They have to
>be specially _trained_ to lie, for example.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>Doesn't *everyone* have to learn to lie. No doubt it doesn't take long to
>learn that much can be gained from lying. Just as in any human society.
>(Zhodani *were* still human, last I heard)
=========================================================================
 
Dane:
      Yup, the Zhos are human.  However, in the Zhodani society, Lying will
*not* gain you anything but re-education.  Unless you're Psionic (ie Noble)
and *very strong* you're not going to be able to hide lying and cheating. 
Esp. since whoever you lied to and cheated is probably going to report you.
 
      This is sort of the whole point, I think:  The Zhodani society is a
Human one without any advantage to lying, cheating or stealing.  Phil doesn't
think this is possible, which is his right, but as a consequence of this
assumes we should be agreeing with him that the Zhodani are clearly an evil
empire.  I think some of us do think it's possible, and that Humans are not
intrinsically nasty and conniving.  I know I don't think we're inherently
liers<shrug>.  However, GDW has gone out of its way to present the Zhos as
just that sort of society.  Nothing contradicts this portrayal of them in the
books.
 
- --------------------------------------------
 
>Phil:
>In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good to be true.   
 
>Hans:
>As someone else pointed out, that's why they're _alien_!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>And, as I've pointed out, they're also human too! With all the millenia 
>of common terran evolution still embedded in their "human nature". 
 
- -----------------------------------------------
 
Dane:  See my above point:  I do not believe that Human nature requires us to
be liers.
 
- -------------------------------------------------------
 
>Phil:
>On the other hand, I suppose someone could say there's an "alien" society not
>too far from where I live. It's called the Republic of Mexico!
 
>As Catie said; "they're *still* slaves." (sic). A slave society is
>still a slave society & I just can't see how that could be considered
>anything but a dystopia.
- -------------------------------------------------------
 
Dane:
      Slaves in what way?  Proles don't have the vote.  They have a legal and
social system which permits them to "see their own potential and to see the
paths they can take toward realizing it."  Crime is completely absent and the
criminals are 100% reformed using psionic techniques.
 
      And yes, there is an alien society not too far from where you live.  It
is the Republic of Mexico.  Canada isn't that far away, either.  The attitudes
and cultures of foreign countries are in many cases radically different than
those here in the US.  Heck, we're not even that uniform:  consider an average
teen growing up in south-central LA and one growing up in Minot, North Dakota. 
How similar are their world views, attitudes, and so forth going to be?  To
the LA teen, the lifestyle that exists in Minot is all but unthinkable, and
vice versa.  <Shrug>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
 
>Phil Pugliese
 
Dane, Perfidious Zhodani Aggitator

traveller@llnl.gov
djohnson@willamette.edu
TNS Stringer ------------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
"I'm not a real scientist, but I play one in an RPG."

------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5910
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 93 10:54 GMT
From: "ER........" <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
Subject: What the castaways have

		Desert planet Moonshots......

Ok here is what I have,

	At least one man with a technical background upto 1940's level of tech 
	plus possibly 3-4 TL8 trained engineers.

	A pile of basic engineering, chemistry, mining and physics books plus
	a bunch of 'how to..' books.

	Some Precision TL 8 micrometers, vernier caliper and lenses

	A pile of anagathics  (what do you think the ship was stealing?)

	A map of the planetry resources

	A region rich in Nitrate deposits, oil and minerals.

	(possibly) some TL 0 (stone/bronze age)primitives to use to do grunt 
		work.

	A tall mountain

	A BIG lake

If you had plenty of time to calculate the orbit, could you build a 1 use
dedicated analog calculator to do the burn times etc?  

I beleive the German Me233 Komet had a very easy to build rocket engine
maybe that would do? Pumps are tricky but not impossible surely?
Do you have to use steel? for low stress 1 use applications at least?
Life support may not be a problem (a vaccsuit with enough air MAY be available)

The TL 15 ship is 'off' no radio reception.



No prefab parts tho....

This is basically me trying to see if my mad player's idea is feasible, if not
I'll get them out of their mess someother way (teach them to get stranded!)


	

------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5911
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Zhodani
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 13:33:21 +0100 (METDST)

>From Phil:
>>>Phil:
>>>The dream of the 
>>>ideal society where all one's needs & wants will be, at the very least, 
>>>seriously considered is a very powerful lure. In my case, I find that 
>>>it's very, very difficult for me to accept that this is possible, psionics 
>>>or not. 
> 
>>Hans:
>>Why? It's been achieved on Earth in limited areas for brief periods of
>>time. All that is needed is that the society produces more than its
>>citizens need (That dosen't mean that any such society will achieve it,
>>just that its possible in those circumstances).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>Reminds me of some of the accounts, written by the slavemasters, of course, 
>describing the "utopia" of plantation life. Reminds me of a book about 
>Darwin I read a long time ago. He talks about visiting a plantatiion in 
>Brazil, where the master assured him that this was a virtual heaven on 
>earth. He even trotted out his slaves & sure enough, not a single one 
>expressed the wish to be free! Well, Darwin wasn't fooled. He knew
>a slave society when he saw one & so do I! 

And noone is going to tell you anything different, dammit! Right? You seem
emotionaly, almost religiously, unwilling to explore even the possibility 
that it could work. Now, I have my own doubts about the Zhodani, but they
are based on the history of the Consulate. So I'm really just playing
devil's advocate here. Still, there is one crucial difference between a
psionic society and any society we've ever seen on Earth that makes me
wonder. What, you ask? See below.

>The problem isn't producing
>more than the citizens *need*, it's producing more than the citizens *want*.

I can't resist the temptation to point out that thanks to the Tavrchedl'
the citizens don't want more than they get. But that really wasn't my point.
The example I'm thinking about is the Scandinavian countries ind the 6th
and 7th decade of this century which your words "all one's needs & wants 
will be, at the very least, seriously considered" fits to a 't'. Nor should
such abundance be hard to achieve in any technologically based society that
is willing to practice population control. (Which most of the societies in
Traveller space, the Aslans not excluded, obviously does).

>I submit that the Zhodani have no where near as much as they want and their
>society's behavior reflects that. On the other hand their expansion could
>just be old fashioned 'crusading', I suppose. Just as bad, IMO.

Yes, I think that crusading is closer to the mark than wants. Not that 
they've done any crusading for the last couple of millenia.
  
>>>I find that I just can't believe that a monolithic society, of 
>>>any sort, could be preferable to a diverse one. 
> 
>>Hans:
>>Whoa! Where does it say that Zhodani society is monolitic? How would you
>>like a diverse society where nobody lies, cheats, or steals? Might that
>>not be worth considering?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>It's right there in the books. It's the job of the Tavrchedl, as the "Sword
>& Shield" the Zhodani ruling class, to ensure conformity. 

Yes, but conformity to what? The notion that lying, cheating, and stealing
is bad, or total cultural conformity? The first, definitely. The second,
perhaps, but not necessarily so on the evidence.

>All dissimilar
>cultures *must* yield to the Zhodani "One True Vision", or else, as the
>Imperium has found out a number of times. As I said before, it's the na-
>ture of such regimes. The greatest threat to them is the existence of 
>*any* other form of society.

This seems not to be the case once one examine the number of times the
Imperium has found that out closer. The Zhodani attacks have all been
defensive in concept (their concept; let's not get involved in any
discussion about the morality of pre-emptive strikes. I don't believe
in them, but the Zhodani obviously does). Evidence: The failure of the 
Zhodani to attack and assimilate the Domain.

 
>"Nobody lies, steals & cheats"? Give me a break! Nobody *but* the ruling
>class you mean. 

No, I mean _nobody_. According to the rules lying is a special skill taught
by covert services. 

>(Remember, *they* get the benefit of rights, unlike the teeming "masses".)

Do they? 

>Of course, if *everyone* had the right to pyshic privacy then the Tavrchedl 
>couldn't do their job. 

A noble will still know that he can't hide the truth if he ever gets 
investigated. He may not be subject to routine examinations (though why
not if the Tavrchedl' really is a medical service? Scott? What does it
say about that in _Zhodani_? Unfortunately I don't have it available at
the moment). 

>But after all, these proles are just inferior creatures anyway, aren't they? 
>They *need* to be cared for so they don't do themselves harm. (Now, where 
>have I *heard* that before?) Any society that believes that it's fine , 
>even desirable, to exclude such a portion of their population from enjoying 
>any sort of inherent rights, cannot be a Utopia. Medieval, yes; utopia, no. 

First of all, you are the one who brought up the Utopia motif in the first
place, and back then you exemplified it by talking about wants and needs
being considered. By that definition I think that the Zhodani way of life
_could_ be as good as they claim. As for rights, you're still considering
it a given that mental examinations always, in all circumstances, is a 
violation of the person concerned. The Zhodani consider such examinations
medical ones. I Denmark we have for decades had mandatory innoculations of
all children for several diseases. Sticking needles into people and
forcing them to swallow unpleasant fluids! What a violation! Still, I'm
quite glad that my chances of getting consumption from some passing 
stranger is quite a lot less than it could have been. Nor do I feel
myself much of a slave for the experience (What I have to do to pay my
taxes, now, _that_ makes me feel like a slave sometimes ;-).

Btw. as I said above, I don't have my copy of _Zhodani_ available. If you
can find a reference to the nobles being _by right_ extempt from mental
examination then I'll admit that you've proved a point about the Zhodani.

> Phil:
>>>Therefore I don't think 
>>>it's too surprising that I treat the benevolent assessments of Zhodani 
>>>rule as basic propaganda. Just because they're psionic doesn't mean that 
>>>they're not capable of just as much treachery & deceit as anyone else. 
> 
>>Hans:
>>Actually, they're not (at least, not going by the rules). They have to
>>be specially _trained_ to lie, for example.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>Doesn't *everyone* have to learn to lie. 

No. It's self-taught. You try it out, it works, you try again, you get
found out, you experience the consequences of being found out, you 
gradually work out wether its worth the risks, etc. Eventually you mature 
(if you do; some people don't) and start to consider the moral implications 
of lying. Show me a child with a strong moral sense and I'll show you a 
child whose parents have indoctrinated him with those strong moral precepts.
(OK, I'll admit to the possibility of a rare, naturally honest person, but
I haven't heard of any yet (Except Jesus Christ, of course ;-)).

>No doubt it doesn't take long to
>learn that much can be gained from lying. Just as in any human society.
>(Zhodani *were* still human, last I heard)

But that's exactly the point! That's the crucial difference between a
psionic society and our. A Zhodani (prole and noble alike) has grown up
learning that _he ALWAYS gets found out_!!! If not by his neighbourhood
Tavrchedl' councellor then by his psionically gifted parents. By the
time he is grown up honesty is a conditioned reflex with him. 

>>>Phil:
>>>In short, the Zhodani system just sounds too good to be true.   
> 
>>Hans:
>>As someone else pointed out, that's why they're _alien_!
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Phil:
>And, as I've pointed out, they're also human too! With all the millenia 
>of common terran evolution still embedded in their "human nature". On the 
> other hand, I suppose someone could say there's an "alien" society not too 
> far from where I live. It's called the Republic of Mexico!

You think about the implications of growing up _knowing_ beyond a shadow
of a doubt that lying is impossible and then tell me if you don't think
any society that grows from that wouldn't seem far more alien to you
than Mexico.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5912
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 93 09:23:23 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com>
Subject: Merc crusiers


  The drop from J-3/M-3 to J-1/M-1 doesn't seem to be a typo.  Compare some
of the other ships' stats.  The 100 Ton Scout went from a CT/MT occupancy
of 8 to a TNE occupancy of 4.  The TNE starship construction rules (which
we won't see till Brilliant Lances) is obviously a different animal than the
CT/MT rules.
  The section on the Regency mentioned a 150 ton `strech' Scout.  Hopefully
this will boost the number of cabins back to something usefull for a small
party of adventures.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin  Racal-Interlan   Boxborough, MA  These opinions are mine.
Governor Ann Richards of Texas joked about the CCW bill she vetoed, saying 
that no woman could find a gun in her purse before she was killed anyway. 
For the record Governor Richards has publicly stated that she carries a 
handgun in her purse, in violation of Texas state law.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5913
From: Timothy Little <t_little@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Various...
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 93 2:56:34 EST

[... Stranded astronauts trying to get to the moon ...]

> However it might be possible if they landed on the planet with vacc suits,
> given a generous ref :-).

Very generous indeed!

> Using the high altitude glider + balloons to gain
> altitude they could then have constructed some simple rockets fueled with,
> say alcohol, and use the remaining atmosphere coupled with the oxygen
> supplies from some of their vacc suits - this would be a one man trip only.

Getting high in the atmosphere does not mean that it will be any easier to get
into orbit.  There's still a slight problem of achieving 8 km/s.

I'd be amazed if a simple alcohol rocket could get 1 km/s exhuast velocity,
and even so it would take 200 tons of fuel to get a single person into orbit.
Multiply by 20 to get to the moon.

[...]

> This one guy then has the time it takes him to reach the moons surface from
> maximum vacc suit communication range to tell the TL15 ship to pick him
> up - otherwise he's dead. (A kinder alternative would be to allow him
> to achieve orbit round the moon - but that might overtax his vacc suit's 
> computer, prehaps a decaying orbit? :-)

I'd like to see someone plot a decaying orbit around the moon!  No atmosphere
to slow the guy down means little chance of orbital decay.

Overtaxing the vacc-suit computer would be less of a problem (*especially*
at TL15 - hand supercomputers are TL11 stuff), compared to the problem of
needing yet more fuel...

- -*-*-*-*-*-

> 1> How "thick" is our galaxy? (in parsecs or light years) If I'm mapping it
>    into 3D, I want to have a general idea of how much vertical space I have
>    to work with.

It varies a fair bit, but 1000 parsecs is a reasonable guide.  As far as
Traveller goes, there is effectively no vertical limit.

> 2> Lots of SF works speak of nebulas. Where are these things located and how
>    big are they? I've not seen any descriptions of these in Traveller and it
>    seemed like a neat thing to include.

Nebulae are located all over the galaxy.  Dark nebula range in size from the
lower limit of observation up to galaxy-spanning lanes.  Bright nebulae
are usually only a few light years across, but can reach hundreds of light-
years if illuminated (or ionised) by very bright stars.  They wouldn't have
much game-mechanical effect - they pretty much 'just look cool'.  Density of
gas/dust in a nebula is still so low that interplanetary space looks like
osmium in comparison.  It's only because the thickness is so large, that you
can see anything.

- --
Tim Little

------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5914
Subject: Re: Lo-tech moon shot
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 17:11:51 -0400
From: "John C. Orthoefer" <jco@fs1-6.bbn.com>


here is the message I sent to ER..... and the reply I got which covers
some of the question that other people had.

johno


- ------- Forwarded Messages

Forwarded: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 22:20:52 -0400
Forwarded: "bb@cis.ufl.edu "
Return-Path: <jco@fs1-6.BBN.COM>
Received: by fs1-6.bbn.com (4.1/SMI-4.1)
	id AA09987; Tue, 17 Aug 93 22:12:10 EDT
Message-Id: <9308180212.AA09987@fs1-6.bbn.com>
To: "ER........" <BSP054@bangor.ac.uk>
Cc: jco@fs1-6.BBN.COM
Subject: Re: Lo-tech moon shot 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 Aug 1993 17:51:00 GMT."
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 22:12:09 -0400
From: "John C. Orthoefer" <jco@fs1-6.BBN.COM>


> Problem: 1-5 Individuals of tech 6-8 stranded on an earth type world at TL0, 
> their only means of returning to civilisation is to get to the TL15 vessel on 
> the planets moon.
> 
> Question: Given time (assuming anagathics if nescessary) could a ship be
> built to get to the moon?

I'd like to know a bit more, I don't have enough information.  Is it
1-5 people on a tech level 6-8, with a general population of several
million?  Or is this a Desert Island kinda problem?  Also do they have
access to TL 15 (or TL 6-8) computers?  Do they have cash for that
world?  Or even Astromomey books?  What kind of education?

My guess is you have a desert island type problem.  And my answer is I
don't think so.  Just to hit a moon, you need a computer and/or some
very good astromony insterments (yes, the first orbits were don't on
chalkboards, but that was really the results of 300 years of science.)

To build a rocket engine (even solid fuel) you need to know 100's of
years of knowlege of Chemistry, metalurgy and fuild dynamics.  Solid
fuel can be harder, because you are burning explovies, how do you keep
it from lighting up all at once?  How do you make a fuel which burns
on it's one oxidizer?

If you have a chemistry book you (at least I think I could) can figure
out the chemistry you need.

To make the trip it takes Liquid O2, or even pressurized gas.  You
need Liquid O2 for a Liquid fuel engine.  To store gases you need
Steel flasks.  And GOOD pressure/vaccuum pumps.   5 people in several
life times couldn't mine enough steel.  

They would also have to have a transport system to make it work.  I
can't think of any one place on this planet with everything you need
sitting in one place.  So you need a real infrastructure, like the
US's. 

If the planet has people that you can work and educate, even TL 0
slaves.  And your people have computers to plot the moons orbit and
guide the ship (you need ATLEAST simple analog computers, which I
couldn't build, but I think someone being creative with some TL7
laptops might be able to hack something).

The scale of the earth/moon system is hitting a golfball about 3000 mi
(or 4800 Km) and missing by inches (Cm).  And this is all assuming
that have been able to build a self contained rocket motor.  Which is
assuming you have a cabin which will support life for 3 days.

The simple final answer 5 people with no prefab parts, no way.  5
people with no prefab parts but some labor maybe with lots of luck. 5
people with lots of TL 6-8 people, of course.

For more insite, subscribe to the space-tech mailing list.  For a
story that is roughly equivent to your problem look at Riverworld
books by Farmer (I think).  

In the books if you don't know Mark Twain builds a riverboat out of
very little (really he builds two, and people at the same site build
an air ship too) and a riverboat is MUCH simpler than getting living
beings out of the atmosphere.  And they didn't have to worry about
feeding themselves.

Hope this doesn't total blow you away.  But when you better define the
problem I might beable to get you some more ideas of hangups.

johno

jco@bbn.com




- ------- Message 2

Forwarded: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 17:09:47 -0400
Forwarded: "bb@math.ufl.edu "
Forwarded: Wed, 18 Aug 1993 13:09:30 -0400
Forwarded: "BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK "
Return-Path: <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
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	id AA11206; Wed, 18 Aug 93 13:04:46 EDT
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Via: uk.ac.bangor; Wed, 18 Aug 1993 18:08:10 +0100
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 18:09 GMT
From: "ER........" <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
To: JCO <JCO@FS1-6.BBN.COM>
Subject: Re: Lo-tech moon shot

Ok here is what I have,

	At least one man with a technical background upto 1940's level of tech 

	A pile of basic engineering, chemistry, mining and physics books.

	Some Precision TL 8 micrometers, vernier caliper and lenses

	A pile of anagathics

	A map of the planetry resources

	A region rich in Nitrate deposits, oil and minerals.

	(possibly) some TL 0 primitives to use to do grunt work.

	A tall mountain

	A BIG lake

If you had plenty of time to calculate the orbit, could you build a 1 use
dedicated analog calculator to do the burn times etc?  

I beleive the German Me233 Komet had a very easy to build rocket engine
maybe that would do? Pumps are tricky but not impossible surely?
Do you have to use steel? for low stress 1 use applications at least?
Life support may not be a problem (a vaccsuit with enough air MAY be available)

No prefab parts tho....
thanks for the reply

PAVEWAY


PAS could you forward this back to me (I forgot to make a copy) :)

	

- ------- End of Forwarded Messages


------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5915
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 93 22:26:07 EDT
From: colin roald <colin@callisto.pas.rochester.edu>
Subject: Re: Utopia

The "philosopher-king" is from Plato's Republic, which predates _The Utopia_
by a couple millenia.


- --
colin | there are two schools of thought on Nostradamus:  either (1) he
roald | had supernatural powers which enabled him to prophesy the future
      | with uncanny accuracy, or (2) he did for bullshit what Stonehenge
      | did for rocks.    (cecil adams)

------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5916
Date: 20 Aug 1993 02:28:52 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Summation?

Well I'll try to sum this up;


Some of you seem to think (almost religiously, to borrow a
phrase from Hans) that a society which includes a
substantial number of people, in fact, a majority, I believe,
who are denied what we currently consider basic, minmal hu-
man rights, can be, possibly, a virtual utopia. (No Dane, it's
not *just* voting rights proles are denied, they have vir-
tually no rights at all, especially if the Tavrchedl get on
their case)

I find this more unbelievable, much more as a matter of fact,
than 'thruster plates'.

I guess that about says it all.

Phil Pugliese

p.s. How come no one complains about psionics when it's just
as much magic as 'thruster plates etc '? I always figured
GDW threw it in originally because everyone "knew" you couldn't
publish an rpg profitably w/o emulating TSR's 'magic' & 'wizards' 
in (A)D&D. Ergo psionics!

------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5917
From: rwm12@cus.cam.ac.uk (R.W. Moore)
Subject: Moonshot
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 16:25:48 +0100 (BST)

>> Using the high altitude glider + balloons to gain
>> altitude they could then have constructed some simple rockets fueled with,
>> say alcohol, and use the remaining atmosphere coupled with the oxygen
>> supplies from some of their vacc suits - this would be a one man trip only.
>
>Getting high in the atmosphere does not mean that it will be any easier to get
>into orbit.  There's still a slight problem of achieving 8 km/s.

Yes, but its still easier to achieve 8km/s than 11km/s! (assuming a 1g planet)

>I'd be amazed if a simple alcohol rocket could get 1 km/s exhuast velocity,
>and even so it would take 200 tons of fuel to get a single person into orbit.
>Multiply by 20 to get to the moon.

Hey, I never said it would be easy - the ref does have to be kind!

>> This one guy then has the time it takes him to reach the moons surface from
>> maximum vacc suit communication range to tell the TL15 ship to pick him
>> up - otherwise he's dead. (A kinder alternative would be to allow him
>> to achieve orbit round the moon - but that might overtax his vacc suit's 
>> computer, prehaps a decaying orbit? :-)
>
>I'd like to see someone plot a decaying orbit around the moon!  No atmosphere
>to slow the guy down means little chance of orbital decay.

Who said THIS moon had no atmosphere? 

>Overtaxing the vacc-suit computer would be less of a problem (*especially*
>at TL15 - hand supercomputers are TL11 stuff), compared to the problem of
>needing yet more fuel...

The technology to build handheld computers may be there but why would you
fit one into a vacc suit? All it has to do is control lifesupport, a 
supercomputer would be an unneeded waste of money.

For the completely insane player there is the alternative as used in
Larry Niven's Footfall. The atom bomb powered spacecraft! Build a large
iron shell several meters thick (I don't know how thick but it has to
shield you from an atom bomb!) and mount a 'living quarters' on it using
heavy springs. Then to take off throw out a couple of atom bombs and off you
go! Steam jets can be used for steering and more atom bombs for thrust.
A guidance computer could probably be done without since the cabin must be
relatively well cushioned - enough that the jolt of landing from inaccurate
thrusting is less that that of an atom bomb! The biggest problem is
manufacturing the bombs themselves. The hardest part of which is to produce
plutonium. This can be achieved if they have a uranium ore deposit and know
how to extract the uranium. They then build a reactor which will then
produce plutonium. (use graphite as a moderator and remove all the hi-tech
safety systems that todays reactors have - Fermi build a pile of high
purity graphite bricks and uranium rods that manage to go critical).
Iron can easily be produced given time. Please note this suggestion is
not to be taken completely seriously - but it might just work if the
players are VERY lucky and the referee is VERY generous. The alternative
is to put the natives on a crash course of civilisation, after all it
only took us about 2000 years without help.

Roger






------------------------------

Bundle: 490
Archive-Message-Number: 5918
Date:    Fri, 20 Aug 1993 18:56:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Subject: Traveller

These are just a few notes I've put together after my first 2 or 3 bundles
of messages. . .

PHILOSOPHER KINGS AND UTOPIA
I could be wrong, but I believe Plato was one of the first Utopians.
He wrote extensively on society and politics, and founded a colony to put
his ideas into practice. It failed after a few years. Among other things,
Plato had no use for artists, especially story-tellers and thespians, for they
produced no tangible resources for the state; they only consumed. One reason
I don't like Plato, that.

At any rate, remember that Utopian societies have historically been an
expression of the human quest for the ideal. As long as they are founded
and controlled by humans (which the Zhodani are) they will be flawed.

MOON SHOT
This is really interesting! I'm glad whoever started it brought it up.

Well, I just got my copy jumbled, but it seems you've defined the resources
a little bit better. I take it they crashed on the planet and their ship
is irreparable. Are the computers intact? A starship's computing power would
go a long way to computing the requisite angles, consumption rates, etc needed
for the trip.

BTW, even if they didn't have the computers, grunt labor to build a primitive
way of measuring the movement of heavanly bodies (ala Stonehenge, or Mayan
methods) could probably land them near enough that they could steer by
sight once there.

RE:Timothy Little
". . .I'd like to see someone plot a decaying orbit around the moon! No
atmosphere to slow the guy down means little chance of orbital decay. . ."

I was under the impression that orbital decay occured because of gravity,
at least for objects short of geosychonous orbit.

What about the contragrav units on the ship? Are they functional? The
stuff on the ship can become very important. . .I doubt it's completely
destroyed, since they seem to have landed safely.

Natives and Anagathics: The party had better keep tight control of the
knowledge of and use of those anagathics. If the natives got wind of them. . .
well, the GM has a whole new set of situations to throw at the party. 

J Roberson

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
